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AOL Spam Roadblock Takes a Toll

By Ed Foster, Section The Gripelog
Posted on Thu Aug 09, 2007 at 09:37:26 AM PDT

Anyone who manages a mail list of any real size knows what a pain it is nowadays to deal with the various spam-blocking techniques employed by different ISPs. As we saw recently with Yahoo, some anti-spam traps seem designed to catch legitimate e-mail as much as the junk. One reader, however, has gotten so frustrated with the inflexible spam-blocking approach of AOL that he's wondering if the company is deliberately using it to promote its guaranteed e-mail delivery service.


The reader writes:

"I am one of a couple dozen volunteer administrators of a website for car enthusiasts with over 60,000 participants worldwide. Our discussion lists have routed nearly a million helpful e-mails between members through our mailing lists. In an attempt to maintain our independence, we have eschewed ads and commercial support. We rely solely on our members' donations, which we do not solicit via mass e-mailings. Not only are we all opt-in, to be able to access our forums one has to complete a full registration page and check the unchecked boxes to receive notifications of list postings and free ads."

"Three years ago, to much fanfare, AOL introduced their new and improved spam blocking which included end-user-generated spam reports as one component. While there are certainly knowledgeable AOL users, there are enough Clueless Ones (COs) that basing a decision on their reaction to a concept they don't comprehend would result in predictable failure. The COs' definition of 'spam' does not include the concept of 'unsolicited' or 'commercial,' it's just 'e-mail I've decided I don't wish to receive.' So rather than returning to our website to de-register or deselect any notifications, they start marking all our e-mail as spam. Each one generates a spam report, which is tracked by AOL and forwarded to us. Our most active e-mail lists forward a hundred messages per day, so you can see that one CO can generate a lot of reports and create headaches for the list administrators. We'd dump the COs in a heartbeat, but AOL redacts their e-mail addresses."

"Spam reports trickle in (compared to our volume of unrejected e-mail) to AOL-central until we reach an unspecified threshold, then AOL blocks all of our e-mail. AOL has a lengthy unblock/whitelist procedure which takes about five hours of admin time over three days to complete. As soon as we complete that, spam reports -- most likely from the same individual or individuals who caused us to be blocked in the first place -- start arriving and the cycle repeats. On average it happens every three to six months."

"A legitimate site should not have to go through this repeatedly just because AOL hasn't considered the consequences of automatically blocking customer-reported spam without some verification procedure. Something as simple as comparing the number of spam reports to our total AOL mail volume would be a start. Trying to permanently resolve the issue from our end has been impossible. When one of the AOL postmasters returns our calls, which is infrequently, they send us back to the ineffective unblock procedure."

"We've asked our AOL members to call to complain, figuring they'd receive a more sympathetic hearing since they are the ones paying the bills. They've been told to have us sign up for AOL's pay-per-e-mail guaranteed delivery service. Now the light bulb clicks on! AOL assured everyone that they would not block legitimate e-mailers when they instituted their pay-per-mail service, but like a speed trap on a low-limit stretch of fast road, this is a moneymaker for them. Hassle with trying to beat the ticket, or pay the fine."

"What they've neglected to consider is a third alternative -- we're planning to inform our 6000-plus registered AOL members that because of AOL's overly restrictive spam policies we cannot guarantee delivery of requested e-mail from our site. Furthermore, because of our repeated, unsuccessful, and time consuming attempts to resolve the problem with AOL, we'll be immediately blocking new registrations from AOL users and pretty soon we'll be de-registering all AOL users and removing them from our mailing lists. We're compiling a letter instructing our users on how to find and set up alternate ISPs or free mail providers to handle their e-mail needs. That will be easier than dealing with AOL every few months."

What do you think? Is AOL using its spam-blocking procedures to get business for its paid e-mail, or is AOL, as our reader might say, just another Clueless One? Post your comments below or write me at Foster@gripe2ed.com.

< Has Dell Returned to its Roots? | An Aversion to Supporting Vista >


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AOL Spam Roadblock Takes a Toll | 38 comments (38 topical) | Post A Comment
SPAM is a nasty problem[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#1)
by Anonymous User on Thu Aug 09, 2007 at 12:20:51 PM PDT

One person's SPAM is another's treasure. SPAM works or it wouldn't be so pernicious. The problem is deciding whether a particular email is or isn't SPAM.

AOL's pay based model is obviously not the answer.

A verified sender program would drastically knock down the level of SPAM from botnets, but no one seems able to create a standard that everyone is able or willing to follow. Sender Policy Framework (SPF) http://www.openspf.org/, for example, works rather well, when it's configured right. If it was in general use, the SPAM pretending to be from the government (FBI, IRS) or any well known corporation would simply be dumped. Unfortunately, not everyone has set it up, even though it only takes minutes to do so.

If the corporations whose domain names are being forged by spammers aren't interested in taking 5 minutes of their DNS admin's time to do it, I guess SPAM just isn't that much of a problem to them.

[ Reply to This ]



Re: SPAM is a nasty problem[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#5)
by veritek on Fri Aug 10, 2007 at 07:20:03 AM PDT

SPF won't stop spam. Period. It may stop forgeries, but even that is debatable. It's too easy for the spammers/fishers to use the same old social engineering techniques to convince people to buy their junk, respond to 419 scams, etc. SPF has it's place, but it is far from being a panacea to end spam. Not to mention the impracticalities of getting every mail server and domain on the entire Internet to upgrade to SPF compatible software. You'd have an easier time trying to educate the entire Internet userbase on how to properly report/ignore spam.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


video joiner[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#37)
by Anonymous User on Thu May 22, 2008 at 03:43:22 AM PDT

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[ Parent | Reply to This ]


AOL Is Broken[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#2)
by Anonymous User on Thu Aug 09, 2007 at 02:04:23 PM PDT

I've tangled with AOL and it's customers before. The word "frustrating" doesn't cover it. I've often felt AOL is a big company which has simply never really understood the Internet from the beginning, and refuses enlightenment. They don't know how to fight spam, and they refuse to restrain their own spammers. I seem to recall some of the more active anti-spam sysadmins refer to AOL as "block on sight" -- add them to your internal blocklist.

Bad enough AOL doesn't understand the Net, nor business ethics, but they do their best to keep their users from understanding the Net. The reader you reference is following a remedy with a long history. I can't count how many times I've seen fan sites with warnings to AOL users. [jehurst (at) operamail (dot) com]

[ Reply to This ]



It may well be spam[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#3)
by Anonymous User on Thu Aug 09, 2007 at 02:22:00 PM PDT

The original poster doesn't provide enough information to let us determine whether or not he's indeed sending spam. This lack of information leads me to believe that he may well be doing so.

Spam is defined as UBE (Unsolicited Bulk Email). If it's possible for someone to use his web form to sign some innocent victim up for his mailing list, his list is sending spam. In that case, the complaints are valid and AOL's action is correct.

It doesn't matter how much form-filling out the web page requires. What matters is whether filling out that page results in an Email that must be replied to in order to join the list. That Email should contain a random key so that only the receiver can provide the correct reply. This is one of the few ways to be sure that the person who signed that address up for the list actually owns that address and wants to subsribe.
--
Ron

[ Reply to This ]



Even if you have confirmed opt-in consent...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#4)
by Anonymous User on Thu Aug 09, 2007 at 03:23:46 PM PDT

...there's no way to prove it, because AOL won't tell you who the complainant is. It gets kind of annoying; I've seen AOL users report our monthly (opt-in, confirmed) email postcard as spam, but also freelancers who accepted a gig from us then report our follow-up email (with travel info and the like) as spam. I understand that AOL is trying to reduce listwashing, but getting an email that boils down to "some anonymous AOL member says you spammed them" is frustrating without being in any way useful.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


More Clueless Ones[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#34)
by Anonymous User on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:32:35 AM PDT

We have folks on our college campus who forward their college email to their AOL accounts. When they report a message as spam, we get dinged for it. From the messages AOL sends to me, I can tell many of these are messages from Mom, or friends, and not spam at all. I'm told the "spam" button in the AOL email interface is right next to the "delete" one... In some ways it would be easier with a mailing list: I'd script a mailing that contained the recipient's email address in the body, as AOL only redacts the headers (forwarded messages sometimes contain the AOL address in the portion of the header our mail server records). Then you'd know from the bounces which ones to drop.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


AOL's approach doesn't work[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#6)
by Anonymous User on Fri Aug 10, 2007 at 07:45:58 AM PDT

If AOL had a sensible approach to mail blocking, the occasional fake sign-up wouldn't have a problem. AOL could easily set up a process where a sender would be blocked if they didn't remove addresses that report SPAM within a week of the report. This would take care of any sender who failed to maintain their lists, but still allow mail from responsible list maintainers. The problem is that AOL hides the address of the member reporting SPAM, citing "privacy". This makes the AOL SPAM report useless, with the exception of catching e-mails that shouldn't have been sent in the first place. The only sensible response to AOL's approach is to refuse to send to AOL addresses, telling current or potential list subscribers that AOL's policies make it impossible to include them.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Providing the user's Email address doesn't work[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#7)
by Anonymous User on Fri Aug 10, 2007 at 12:24:55 PM PDT

If AOL were to provide Email addresses, that would be a bad thing. It's the same reason why "remove me" requests don't work. Spammers don't care. If you reply to a spammer's remove address, you'll likely end up getting more spam than ever. The spammer will add your address to a "confirmed working" list. See the tale of "Nadine" at http://www.honet.com/Nadine/ for an example.

As an aside, SPAM is Hormel's meat product in a can. It's "spam" (lower case - it's not an acronym) that's UBE.
--
Ron

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Nonissue[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#9)
by Anonymous User on Sat Aug 11, 2007 at 03:33:49 PM PDT

Wouldn't matter if the spammer did add the address to a "confirmed working" list. They'd send a few more spams and the AOL would block them and the user would stop receiving their spams. Only they'd have a chance to remove the user requesting removal and avoid being blocked by AOL. Of course if they honor removes they're not nearly as bad as the typical spammer and perhaps not really a spammer at all.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


WTF?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#10)
by Anonymous User on Sat Aug 11, 2007 at 03:36:22 PM PDT

www.honet.com: Host unknown

'nuff said.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Hey![ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#15)
by Anonymous User on Tue Aug 14, 2007 at 08:21:58 AM PDT

Will someone please supply the correct URL? http://www.honet.com/Nadine/  doesn't work

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Here's an alternate[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#16)
by Anonymous User on Tue Aug 14, 2007 at 10:11:04 AM PDT

You've got DNS problems, as it works every time for me. Unfortunately, I can't just give you an IP address, as it uses a "smart" host and looks for the domain name.

Try this alternate: http://static.samspade.org/mirror/www.honet.com/Nadine/
--
Ron

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Hrm[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#26)
by Anonymous User on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 10:37:36 AM PDT

That link works. Thanks. But I don't have DNS problems. If I had, I couldn't have made that post, since www.gripe2ed.com would also have not resolved.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


"Not only are we all opt-in"[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#8)
by foxyshadis1 on Fri Aug 10, 2007 at 10:11:40 PM PDT

It sounds like any average vbulletin or phpbb board, you know how those things go: Sign up, get sent an email confirmation, can't do anything until you confirm, if they're set up that way. Almost all mailing lists require that step. There's no particular reason not to take them at their word.

What's happening to them is a pretty well known phenomenon by now, anyway. =\

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



discussion mail not spam[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#24)
by sstraw on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 08:29:39 AM PDT

I'm another admin at the site in question.

1. It's a bunch of discussion lists, on automotive technical topics. It isn't advertising, it isn't a compiled newsletter. We are quite well versed in what is and what isn't spam.

2. To sign up, you go through the process on the website, and then have to CONFIRM the code sent to you via email. A athird party might be able to harrass you by repeatedly trying to sign you up for something, but they cannot actually sign you up unless they have access to your mailbox to get the confirmation code and complete the process.

3. In case you're confused, the "free ads" which was mentioned at the tail of the first paragraph (I did not compose the gripe) refers to a classified ads parts wanted/for sale area of the site which people have to deliberatley express an interest in.

The bulk of our problem appears to be with nitwits who think that AOL's "block this sender" or whatever is the appropriate way to exit a discussion list, and the fact that AOL doesn't report the address of the users doing this - I mean, if they're going to report to us that there's a problem, why not give us the ONE thing we need to fix it: the address of the idiot that should be blacklisted from our site?

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#41)
by maderikapapa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 12:57:43 AM PDT

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[ Parent | Reply to This ]


People still use AOL?[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#11)
by Anonymous User on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 06:03:11 AM PDT

Why?

[ Reply to This ]


You need to ask why?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#14)
by Anonymous User on Tue Aug 14, 2007 at 08:21:03 AM PDT

AOL is like the Hotel California. You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.

Search this site for various gripes related to this fact. It's simply not possible to cancel your AOL account -- quitting smoking is probably easier. :P

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Forget AOL[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#12)
by Anonymous User on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 08:02:53 AM PDT

I help administer an e-mail reflector for ham radio operators. The site also hosts commercial and government lists. We had the same problem with AOL. Someone would register a complaint that they were being "spammed" by our list, and the server would get blocked. Not just our reflector, but all email from this server, including the commercial and government lists. Obviously this can not continue for long, as it affects the owner's commercial business. Since AOL would never tell us who was filing the complaints (and the list I administer and a few others on the site are "opt in" with verification), it reached the point where AOL users had to be removed from the list and are no longer permitted to join. Not what we wanted to do, but since AOL couldn't be bothered to do anything more, what choice was there? We lost some list members; but we haven't had a problem since.

[ Reply to This ]


Oh- That's Why My Web Host Refuses AOL Addresses[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#18)
by Anonymous User on Tue Aug 14, 2007 at 12:43:07 PM PDT

Oh-thanks why my web host refuses to allow me to send email to AOL addresses by adding such addresses to email distrubution lists. Now I understand. It's AOL's fault, and the web host is just trying to help me.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Build an Identifier into the email[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#13)
by Anonymous User on Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 10:20:24 AM PDT

Rather than rely on AOL to change their practices (it'll never happen - they dont really care) build some other way to identify the subscriber into the email. We include an encrypted version of the subscribers email address in the unsubscribe link. So, if reported by AOL we extract that from the email content and use it to unsubscribe them immediately. Alternatively / additionally, you can use encrypted versions of their unique user number.

[ Reply to This ]


AOL breeding program[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#25)
by sstraw on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:25:42 AM PDT

The web forums / email lists in question do not send out recipient-unique messages (this, BTW, is one of the requirements AOL has to obtain whitelisting status - recipient-unique messages with one-click "remove me" links so their users don't need to type their own addresses). If you're familiar with SMTP, you know that sending out hundreds of messages a day to 10's of thousands of users involves a wee bit of bandwidth - individual messages don't take advantage of multiple-recipient per message distribution (one connection to a server, specify the 25, 50, whatever recipients at that domain, and pass over ONE copy of the message).

I am acutely aware of the utility of encoded return paths for automatic handling of delivery problems for specific recipients. Simple examination of the server logs for SMTP ids - when a message is delivered to a single recipient.

Why should we have to increase our overheads to accomodate AOL's inability to actaully confirm messages are spam before blocking us? We have *THOUSANDS* of AOL users who presumably are NOT flagging the messages - couldn't AOL clue in that the messages didn't get matched for content, the sender has signed up to receive their notifications (for whatever reason, AOL doesn't just use the RFC ABUSE contact), the sender has promptly dealt with previous complaints (nevermind that they've never been confirmed to be spam), and the thousands of other users they have aren't flagging the messages as spam?

Dozens of users flagging a message would be an indication of a problem. One lone user flagging a dozen messages indicates an idiot who doesn't understand what they're doing.

As if this will be a newsflash to anyone here, but AOL breeds idiots. Apparently, their mail system allows users to use "username@aol" - sans the .com - to deliver mail within the system. The users (often complete computer newbies) then begin to believe that when asked for their address - including on a signup form, etc - that they can just type in their userrname@aol, and it'll work. The sheer number of contacts I've had from AOL'ers complaining that something won't work, which boiled down to them not typing their email address in correctly is staggering. I've wasted more time dealing with AOL-isms over the years that I care to admit.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



AOL still at their old tricks[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#17)
by Anonymous User on Tue Aug 14, 2007 at 12:06:29 PM PDT

A bit after graduating from college and no longer having access to the internet, or e-mail through the college network my wife and I decided to try AOL (we only had dial-up capability). After a few months of frustration we decided to cancel. It took weeks of calling to cancel only to find the next month we were still listed. After going through this cycle three times we eventually were able to successfully cancel the service, or rather lack of service. A year later...Surprise, we received a bill for a year's service and it took another round to finally get it canceled. I think it was about this time there was a class action suit brought against them. I noted on Gripeline some one recently went through the same thing. Based on their past and apparently continued performance I'd not put it past AOL to used this form of pressure to try and force legitimate users to use their "We won't deliver your mail to multiple addresses unless you pay us" policy. Of course they'd deny it works this way (It's just the way the system is designed and user input is telling them it is spam). Their using input from the clueless to implement a spam policy is idiotic.

[ Reply to This ]


AOL is horrible at this[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#19)
by Anonymous User on Tue Aug 14, 2007 at 01:27:02 PM PDT

We have people who pay us $15 and up each week to receive a very detailed pay sheet.  We send out a large quantity of these each week.  Many go to AOL.

We also get e-mail based applications from people who want to work for us.  In these applications (it's web generated, then sent through their e-mail client), we have their SSN, name, e-mail address, etc.  

About every 3 months we have one of these AOL applicants mark our reply that we are interested in hiring him marked as SPAM.  We know who did it because the mailing loop includes the text of the e-mail which includes their name, address, ssn, etc.

So we get blocked.  And our outgoing pay sheets get blocked.  We stayed blocked for over a week one time.  They typically deny we are on a block list, though their mail server immediately gives us a 550 errors pointing to http://postmaster.info.aol.com/tools/whitelist_guides.html

What is the fix?  Switch to a large hosted outgoing e-mail service.  Examples are YaHoo, MessageLabs, PostINI, Black Spider.   If you do this, then it is their problem.  These are huge companies.  AOL doesn't have the balls to cut them off.  You could even get an AOL ISP account and just deliver your outgoing e-mail to AOL (and other hosted at AOL domains) through that account.

Worked for us.

[ Reply to This ]



AOL[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#21)
by joshualiberman on Tue Aug 14, 2007 at 04:06:20 PM PDT

The bottom line is that AOL is unsupportable by any business entity. AOL is not an option for reliable email. AOL is a broken toy. Join the other large organizations that simply won't allow AOL users to participate in their wares and someday, AOL will be gone. Remember, friends don't let friends use AOL.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


ssns in email?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#30)
by smyran on Mon Aug 27, 2007 at 09:56:33 AM PDT

Please don't put social security numbers in unencrypted email.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


AOL's spam policies[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#20)
by wabx on Tue Aug 14, 2007 at 02:32:04 PM PDT

Well, knock me over with a feather. AOL has found a way to do something else wrong. It amazes me that so many people use AOL and think they're having a real Internet experience. I wish they'd all cancel and put that white elephant out of it's misery (and ours too).

[ Reply to This ]


AOL is your parents Internet![ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#22)
by Anonymous User on Tue Aug 14, 2007 at 10:35:59 PM PDT

I have always considered AOL to be the ISP of choice for the 'incompetents'. So many thought their AOL email address was too important to give-up in order to switch ISP's. What's even worse is that soo many of the AOL users think they have to use the AOL interface. "You've Got Mail" put Meg Ryan out of the book business in the movie. It's about time for AOL to go out of business. Could make an interesting movie... AOL in HELL - Only 24.99/Mo.

[ Reply to This ]


AOL[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#32)
by nicievans on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 12:55:21 PM PDT

My sister used to use AOL, and I hated staying at her place and trying to do anything on the internet. If you used the AOL browser, you'd get disconnected about once an hour. If you used any other browser (this was a few years ago, when Netscape was my browser of choice), you'd get disconnected once every 20 minutes. Thank goodness she eventually wised up.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Spam backlash[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#23)
by Anonymous User on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 06:12:12 AM PDT

This is, to me, the sad tale of "legitimate" vs the "majority". I'd have to say that the majority of sites blasting out multiple emails such as this gentleman's company does ARE spam related. The fix for this issue is not more spam, whether legitimate or not. What people/companies seem to forget is that there are people out there, just like me. Should a commercial come on the television, I immediately grab for the remote to mute the audio. I personally refuse to blindly accept the barrage of commercial advertising. I do not grin and bear it - I find new ways to shut it out as I am sick of my space being invaded by everyone with a profit motive, message or internet connection. I know that I am somewhat of an exception but that's the way I am. I am just about to purchase a new laptop (yes, with, gulp, Vista on it). I will NOT put this computer online unless absolutely necessary and only after I have protected it with every feasible device. I will download whatever I need on another "sacrificial lamb" machine and move it via USB key to the new machine. I will also use this lamb to handle ALL my email and web access. I will Ghost it and should the bad guys get to it, I will restore the Ghost and go about my business even if I have to do so every day. The proliferation of spam, whether "good" or "bad", to me, is ALL bad. To quote some song lyrics by a band called "Skyking"; "I don't care what you're into, just don't lay it on me. If you're really together, I will see, If I need any answers I'll ask you why but I'm going to live my own life till the day that I die". Advertising depends on people that do NOT think the way that I do but that is the way it is. Still, I don't consider myself a "Ludite" or "Flat Earther" either. There certainly IS a chance that I might not be informed of something I would purchase if I only knew about it, thus preventing legitimate profit for some company but the incredible volume of crap that I must wade through to find this small nugget of wisdom is in no way worth it to me. I simply shut it ALL down and I'm getting worse - I believe other people are too. The attempt at shoving garbage down my throat is not going to sell anything for anybody. It will create the backlash this "legitimate" spammer laments about. I would expect things to get tougher too. Sorry. "A legitimate site should not have to go through this repeatedly just because AOL hasn't considered the consequences of automatically blocking customer-reported spam without some verification procedure." If you ask Doctor Smith (me)? Block it ALL!

[ Reply to This ]


May I offer you a clue?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#27)
by sstraw on Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 09:49:56 PM PDT

What on earth are you going on about? "this company" is an enthisiast website - run by enthusiasts for enthusiasts. None of the maintainers are paid and there's NO commercial advertising on the site -- not even so much as a google adsense block. Not on the homepage, not anywhere on the site. Same goes for the content of the DISCUSSION LIST mail, which is the content which some clueless AOL'ers are flagging. No advertising crammed into list messages (such as footers, or interspersed in digests). No intermediate "view this advertisement" when using the web forums either, as some sites have.

Remember email discussion lists before the days of web-only forums? If Ed's website here had a discussion list through which people shared their opinions, versus just on a webpage like we are now, and you came here and signed up for it, would you then consider the discussion messages (copies of these posts, and nothing more) you received to be spam? Mind you, this is after you've signed up, and confirmed by responding to a uniquely coded email.

There's no "hey, you set up an account on our system, so we feel it is okay to send you some advertising mail" junk going on here - it's just the discussions themselves.

At issue is that clueless AOL'ers sign up to participate on these discussion forums, and rather than unsubscribing when they become disinterested in the discussions, or when they have a disagreement with the opinion of another member, they flag the list mail as spam. These are not advertisements, no sales pitch - it's discussions between users. "How can I remove the frobbitzer valve?" "where's the lifter relay?" "how often do you change the differential oil?"

Not a single one of the messages which AOL sends along to the administrators of the site (after they've redacted the addresses) would be confused for marketing or any form of spam by even the pickiest of abuse coordinators, or by any DNSBL maintainer. AOL does *NOT* review any of the messages their users flag - they take the word (er, mouse click action) of their least-common-demominator customers and act upon that.

All list messages bear RFC standard headers, so any admin worth their salt should recognize they're passing through a listserve. The site doesn't strip prior received headers from submissions, so message origin is capable of being examined as well.

Lastly, if it were spammy, wouldn't *OTHER* sites be blocking us? When we see bounces, they're often keyword based ("ooh, your message looks pornographic in nature" - scan the message, and there's mention of "machine screw" or "grease nipple" and the like), or, based on a recent flurry of bounces - body-scanning DNSBLs taking offense at URLs found in the message - when those URLs turn out to be found in hotmail footers on messages as they were submitted to our lists.

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Same old same old[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#28)
by Anonymous User on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 02:30:56 PM PDT

There is nothing new here.  I reported a similar issue with AOL and AT&T last year. The only difference is that the email being blocked was forwards some of my hosting customers had setup from their own websites to their AOL or AT&T email addresses.  However, in this case, the email was not reported as spam by the AOL or AT&T customer, but whole IP blocks were being banned for whatever. In fact, several of the email were repies back to the AOL customer after using their website email address as a reply to.

After many attempts to resolve this with AOL and AT&T, I finally told all customers that we could not guarantee email delivery to their AOL or AT&T addresses, that if they wanted their mail to setup an email client to check email on our server.  It took some time to setup a few tutorials, but it worked.

One other interesting thing we found out during the process of trying to decipher the spam-blocking parameters used was that Google's gmail addresses were apparently blocked by default.  We tested over 30 different gmail addresses at the time over 3 months and all were blocked. Different messages were used and in reply to addresses on AOL or AT&T. I don't know if that is still the case, but it appeared so at the time.

[ Reply to This ]



Forwarding messages marks us as the spammer[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#29)
by Anonymous User on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 02:37:37 PM PDT

We provide support to a local government that runs its own mail server. Some of the town politicians don't want to check their "official" email address so they have us forward all of their email to a personal email account. Several (including the town's Mayor) use AOL...Yikes. Long story short, we are using a 3rd party mail hop service for SMTP. If SPAM slips through our filter and gets forwarded to one of the AOL users and they report it as SPAM, **we** are flagged as SPAMMERS. I've written nicely to the one individuals involved asking him to not flag forwarded mail, but it happened again this week. If it happens a 3rd time the mail hop folks are going to cut us off at which time AOL email users will be unreachable. That's a shame.

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subscription renewals[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#31)
by smyran on Mon Aug 27, 2007 at 10:06:23 AM PDT

Sorry for chiming in so late. I was contrasting online newsletters to subscriptions for paper-based ones. You hardly ever get a snail-mail periodical that you haven't in some way paid for. You may decide halfway through your subscription that you don't want it any more (and while you could cancel the subscription and make it stop) most people just wait until their subscription runs out and the problem solves itself. It got me to thinking that a periodic opt-in mechanism for email lists might be a good idea. (More things to maintain, sigh.) But only for lurkers. Those who actively participate are already opting in on an ongoing basis.

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AOL, greed kills[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#33)
by Anonymous User on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 11:39:02 AM PDT

I am a network admin for a small rural hospital. We recently had a problem where one of our users sends PR materials to a small business with an AOL account, and AOL was spam blocking us. There is no possible way we could have generated enough spam reports to get us blocked, as we send no bulk email. Although the problem was resolved with approximately an hour of my time, should this happen again my answer will be that we cannot send to AOL accounts and the user should get a different ISP or forego receiving emails from us.

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aderalahoo.com[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#39)
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kimo[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#40)
by Anonymous User on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 12:19:23 AM PDT

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