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Cash Fraudulent Check, Says HSBC

By Ed Foster, Section The Gripelog
Posted on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 01:04:48 AM PDT

The Internet has given new life to a lot of old scams, and perhaps one reason is that the institutions that should be fighting the hucksters don't always understand what's going on. That's certainly what one reader experienced when he tried to report an obvious check overpayment fraud to HSBC, the bank the phony check was drawn on.


"As a serious user of Craigslist and eBay, I'm pretty conscious of Internet fraud and the old advance fee check scams," the reader wrote. "So when I sold an item on Craigslist for $75 and a check for $2,150 arrived, I knew I was dealing with a fake check. That's not unusual, or even disturbing. It's expected. What was not expected was the response I received when trying to report this fraud."

Typically in check overpayment scams, the counterfeit check is drawn on a real account and may pass muster with the bank long enough for the seller to cash it. It's only later, after the seller has wired the excess amount to the soon-to-disappear buyer, that the check proves fake and the seller is left liable for the whole amount. In this case the reader knew better than to cash the check or send his item to the scammer's address in Downey, California, but he thought he should report it to the institutions involved.

"The check was drawn against HSBC bank," the reader wrote. "I called their support line and explained the situation. They told me to deposit the check and see if it cleared. I asked 'Let me get this straight. I know the check is fake. You know it's fake. Yet you are telling me to deposit it and commit a felony?' 'Well sir,' they said 'we can't tell you if it's fake or not until you deposit it.' 'I know it's fake. I've told you it's fake. Someone is creating counterfeit checks drawn on your bank.' 'Sir, we can't know that until you deposit it.' Pathetic."

The reader then tried to report the fraud to the company whose account information was faked on the check - a New York City foreign exchange dealer, not all of whom are above suspicion themselves. "I was told pretty much the same thing by them - I should go ahead and try to cash it. What the heck is going on? Supposedly these people are concerned with check fraud and theft, yet they tell me to break the law by trying to cash a fake check!"

The reader tried e-mailing Craigslist about the situation but with little expectation that they would respond. "No reply from Craigslist. They have so much of this that they rely on their FAQ pages to handle it. I received 17 e-mails on this listing -- 14 were from obvious scammers. The only company that has shown any interest was UPS, as the check was sent via UPS overnight. But I'm not holding my proverbial breath. My guess is that the scammer is avoiding the USPS to avoid action by the postal inspectors."

The reader regards the lack of responsibility displayed by HSBC and others with dismay. "When I asked the HSBC rep if they would be willing to work with me and cover my bounced check fees, guess what I was told? That any fees were between me and the person who sent the check. Huh? Hello? I hung up in disgust. I spent almost an hour on the phone with the bank and the rep for the foreign exchange outfit. Neither really gave a damn. Now I'm wondering who's the bigger fool -- the person who falls for these scams, or the person who tries to fight back."

Have you seen an Internet scam that we all need to know about? Tell us about it by posting your comments below or by writing me at Foster@gripe2ed.com.

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Display: Sort:
Cash Fraudulent Check, Says HSBC | 24 comments (24 topical) | Post A Comment
email scams[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#1)
by Anonymous User on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 09:10:36 AM PDT

What I'm hating lately are the email scams that pretend to be one of your emails bouncing from someone you mailed. Fortunately they usually make up a stupid domain that I would'nt have anything to do with. JR

[ Reply to This ]


Those are ancient[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#9)
by Reziac on Tue Dec 04, 2007 at 11:14:13 AM PDT

I first saw one back in ... uh, must have been 1993 or 1994. Another variant was like "Hi, how are you, it was fun visiting you last week, the kids have the flu, aunt sophie broke her arm, blah blah.." friendly stuff to get you to reply with "I'm sorry, you sent this to the wrong place" as a means of harvesting proven-live email addresses.

And I've seen 'em as scam hardmail, too, way back when chain letters were common. Some things never change.

.
~REZ~
[ Parent | Reply to This ]



video joiner[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#31)
by Anonymous User on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:15:31 AM PDT

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[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Small Claims?[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#2)
by Anonymous User on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 10:12:30 AM PDT

Any lawyers in the audience? If you told HSBC and the NY agency the check looked fraudulent, they told you to cash the check, and you cash it, can you then take them to small claims court if they try to bill you for it later? How much of that money could you reasonably expect to get back?

[ Reply to This ]


Police involvement...[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#3)
by mhkohne on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 12:00:45 PM PDT

Don't the police usually frown on companies that encourage you to commit crimes? These con artists aren't the highest thing on the cops to-do list, but how the heck are they supposed to get on top of these scammers if the companies aren't helping? You should call the appropriate authorities and tell them the whole story. At the very least, they should be able to send someone around to have a word with HSBC. You might have a word with whoever regulates HSBC as well. I would think that the regulators would want HSBC to take an agressive stand against scam artists when possible, and telling you to cash the check is certainly the wrong way to proceed.
Michael Kohne
[ Reply to This ]


FYI, The Secret Service has jurisdiction over this[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#4)
by Anonymous User on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 12:04:01 PM PDT

The Secret Service is the federal agency with jurisdiction over the counterfeiting of monetary instruments, in case the original author cares to file a report. (They might be interested to learn that HSBC instructed you to use a known fraudulent instrument.)

[ Reply to This ]


Nope, not the Secret Service....[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#13)
by Anonymous User on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 03:30:37 PM PDT

The FBI is usually the agency that handles fraudulent or counterfeit checks. The Secret Service generally handles only issues dealing with currency or U.S. government instruments, like bonds, t-bills, certificates, etc., although they could get involved with bad checks if the lines blur between the agencies.

Checks are simply a promise to pay an amount between the payer and payee, with the bank only acting as the intermediary. Checks have been around a long, long time, and banks have clear, well-defined rules in depositing and cashing them.

In my 30+ years of banking experience, I have never once seen a bank manager who wasn't interested in fraudulent checks. With the all-too-common 1-800-customer-service lines today, the rep may be very comfortable with the information they can pull up on their computer screen. Unfortunately, most aren't trained as tellers who know what to look for on bad checks. The blanket answer about suspect checks is almost always for you to deposit the check. What do they care? They almost always get their money back if the item is bad, and they get to charge you $$$ for depositing that bad boy!

Checks can bounce back to the depositor as much as 30 or more days since the deposit. The checks that bounce back in only a few days are usually because the computer kicks them back because of insufficient funds. If an account holder suspects fraud or forgery, it has from 30 to 90 days to report problem items. These items are investigated by hand, and are manually passed back through the banking system.

With all that said, if you ever get a check you know or suspect is bad, bypass the customer service reps. Go straight to the bank's legal or audit departments, or, if you can, to a manager of the bank in question. You certainly don't need a lawyer for that.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Documentation[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#5)
by jsimonson0 on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 01:31:41 PM PDT

The HSBC rep probably told the original person to cash it because until the check is returned, there's no documentation that the check is fraudulent. Until it's presented for payment, it's a piece of paper. With that said, the original person used amazingly not-so-common sense in keeping his bank account out of the process. What also happens is that even if the check is legit, when the check gets returned, there's enough information stamped on it to submit an EFT for the original amount. The EFT process was a loophole in banking protection (don't know if it still is). Most banks didn't question or scrutinize EFT requests. Thus, even if the check clears, the scammer can request a series of smaller EFTs and quickly clean out a bank account.

[ Reply to This ]


Checks can be just about anything...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#10)
by Anonymous User on Tue Dec 04, 2007 at 12:34:26 PM PDT

I remember a story about Elvis writing a guy a check on the back of an envelope and his bank in Memphis cashing it.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Anything can be a check[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#11)
by kamnet on Tue Dec 04, 2007 at 04:36:21 PM PDT

There are nine criteria which identifies whether or not a piece of paper (or anything, for that matter) can be considered a negotiable instrument. These include the proper routing and bank account number, date, signature from the payor, an identified payee,  listed dollar amount, etc. As long as all the right info is listed, it can be processed legitimately as a check, no matter what medium it is written on.

Whether or not it will be honored by the bank is an entirely different matter. :-)

By the way, motivational speaker Patrick Combs once had an issue with a fake check that he knowingly cashed as a joke, and nearly walked away $95,000 richer for it.

http://www.goodthink.com/writing/view_stories.cfm?id=11

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Is that a check[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#17)
by Anonymous User on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 10:24:12 AM PDT

There was a case a few years ago where a fellow went to his bank and got it down properly so it would be cashed. He wrote a check on the back of his shirt. He went to the meeting with the IRS and in the end literally gave them the shirt off his back. They refused to accept it. He refused to leave until they gave him a signed letter that he'd offered them full payment for his taxes due and they'd refused to accept the payment. They checked with the bank and found out that it was in fact a legitimate check. The next week they called him back and agreed to take the shirt off his back, but of course wanted more $$$ for interest and penalties. He produced the letter noting that they'd refused payment and finally agreed to settle for the original amount due.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


So cash it[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#6)
by Anonymous User on Sun Dec 02, 2007 at 09:19:02 PM PDT

I'd say that if HSBC told you to cash it, you should do exactly that - in person, at a branch, demand cash.

I'll bet they'll tell you then that it won't clear.

[ Reply to This ]



Re: So cash it[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#8)
by Anonymous User on Tue Dec 04, 2007 at 10:20:31 AM PDT

Bank of America became famous for arresting a guy who tried this very thing, after he warned them he thought it was fishy. --Milton

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Check cashing storefront?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#18)
by Anonymous User on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 09:04:20 AM PDT

This is when you go to your neighborhood friendly check cashing/bail bonds storefront and let them keep the 10% vig.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


10% vig[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#20)
by Anonymous User on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 09:33:42 AM PDT

I had a friend who owned the neighborhood friendly check cashing/bail bonds storefront and the vig was only 1 or 3%, and then after all the scammers (mostly counterfeit paychecks for truckloads of construction workers on the same job) got the money there wasn't much left. Not much in a local business like that, and then folks can't understand why the business owner wants to frisk and background check every single transaction...Doesn't seem like much vig to me for all that.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Check scams....[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#7)
by Anonymous User on Tue Dec 04, 2007 at 10:20:11 AM PDT

In a business friendly administration, only those crimes which directly affect the industry are of major concern. The damage and inconvienience to the consumer is regarded as negligable. This is true even when the damage to the individual consumers may represent a massed amount ten times in excess to that of the industry. And if much of the damage done by the scam is actually represented by fees charged the consumer by the industry (bounced check, copy fees, reporting fees, etc.) for correcting the mess, then scams are looked at not as bad, but as potential revenue enhancements for the industry. If you look at this scam carefully, the results are clear. The bank customer loses, the industry wins a little from each scam in fees (since the consumer gets charged for the bounced check) but recovers the original loss from the bank customer who attempted to deposite the check, and the scammer wins big. When industry actually benefits, why should they encourage you to not cash the check?

[ Reply to This ]


Too true[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#14)
by johnswift on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 06:35:51 PM PDT

The bank won't make any money on the check if you don't deposit it so they can collect bounced check fees. This Gripe seems to be a free advertisement for PayPal. If I was selling something on eBay and got such a check, I'd send it back and tell them to use PayPal.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


No surprises here[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#12)
by Anonymous User on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 03:19:01 PM PDT

The friendly bank is not YOUR friend. Banks don't investigate or care about any sort of fraud that is not committed against them, which this was not.

[ Reply to This ]


Come on now...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#15)
by Anonymous User on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 07:42:54 AM PDT

So much hand wringing and wasted bandwidth. Where is the common sense? You're selling something and someone sends you an obviously phony check your recourse is just as obvious. First, you don't send the merchandise; you didn't, right? Second, you request proper payment, this time in the form of a postal money order for the exact amount and offer to return the bad check. If you get no satisfaction at this point, game over. Move on. Find another buyer. It makes for a good story.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Money order bad, too[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#16)
by tcsbiz on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 04:44:38 AM PDT

Money orders are being counterfeited and passed off as payment, too. I would not trust a personal check, money order or cashier's check.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


cashing that check[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#19)
by nicievans on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 02:37:35 PM PDT

What they should have done is recommend that you file a police report. Normally the institution on which the instrument is drawn will can verify whether sufficient funds exist in the account to cover the instrument. If they tell you that there is no such account on record or that funds are not available, then take the instrument to your local prosecuting attorney or police department and file a statement that your customer attempted payment with a fraudulent instrument and may be trying to launder money. Once brought to their attention, they will bring it to the attention of whoever else needs to be involved. Should the account and funds actually exist, however, then cash the check (don't deposit it to your account or cash it at a bank where you have an account - if it is bad, they can charge your account for it). Send the customer their product and an invoice showing its price, cost of shipping, - and a "handling" fee for "payment by check" equal to the difference between cost and the amount of the check. Then put all of that money in a cookie jar in case the cops come knocking to tell you that the check you cashed wasn't any good and the place you cashed it would like their money back (or they will charge you with 'knowingly passing a fraudulent instrument' or whatever the crime is known as in your area).

[ Reply to This ]


pears[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#34)
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silent killer[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#35)
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[ Reply to This ]


yes[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#36)
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[ Reply to This ]


Cash Fraudulent Check, Says HSBC | 24 comments (24 topical) | Post A Comment
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