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Windows Security Update Roulette

By Ed Foster, Section The Gripelog
Posted on Tue Nov 27, 2007 at 12:48:16 AM PDT

To patch or not to patch -- that's the gamble IT managers have to make time and again with Microsoft security updates. Put your money on the wrong side and your company's systems could be toast. And the worst part is it's a game where nobody ever wins - the best you can hope for is that you don't lose.


One IT manager returned from the Thanksgiving holiday yesterday to discover that he'd come very close to losing the user permissions on his network, as well as his sanity. "Two of my server admins were working this past weekend applying the latest security updates to Windows Server 2003 R2 on our main departmental server," he wrote. "The upgrade starts performing checkdisks and blowing away all of our ACLs with NTFS permissions. This is a server that is tuned for security with probably several hundred Active Directory groups to allow us to provide the granular application of security permissions necessary in a complex business environment. I am so far beyond stunned on this I don't even know where to begin. If we've avoided utter disaster, it's no thanks to Microsoft."

The admins had noticed the server was running Chkdsk.exe on the hard drives after bootup, but assumed it was one of Windows' standard maintenance routines. Fortunately, after updating some other equipment, they looked again and saw that the server was pouring out line after line of "Replacing invalid security ID with default security ID for file XXXXX." Realizing that the NTFS permissions were being trashed, one of the admins did a hard power-down. "The only thing that saved us was, as soon as they became suspicious when they saw the Chkdsk messages scrolling by, one of the admins slammed the power button and killed the server," the IT manager writes. "They booted the server again, skipped the Chkdsk, then they both scrambled late into the night to identify damaged directories and repair permissions. It could have been a lot worse."

Why that particular server was hit while others they'd updated at the same time weren't is not yet clear. Staff members found a Microsoft KB article that appears to describe the problem. "I will find it totally unacceptable if someone at Microsoft wants to say, well, there is KB article Number 5,000,077 on this and it's our problem if we only read up to Number 5,000,022," the IT manager says. "Why or earth should I expect a standard upgrade with security patches to re-set ACLs across my entire server!? Yes - I am shouting. This is absolute, incompetent madness on the part of Microsoft."

From the knowledge base article, one factor was probably the fact that the reader's organization had not applied the full Service Pack 2 for Win2003 due to issues they'd encountered earlier. But the update hadn't specified that SP2 was required. "Any way you cut it, a security update offered freely without requiring SP2 should not blow away the ACLs of the server. In fact, no should do this. This is just sickening - we are all starting to despise Microsoft and its patching methods."

Have you gambled on patching or not patching Windows and lost? Tell us about it by posting your comments below or by writing Ed Foster at Foster@gripe2ed.com.

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Windows Security Update Roulette | 26 comments (26 topical) | Post A Comment
Huh?[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#1)
by Matthew Cervi on Tue Nov 27, 2007 at 04:44:50 AM PDT

Am I missing something here?  It looks like their problem had nothing to do with a patch other than it requiring a reboot.  

Sounds like they applied a hotfox and something corrupted the volume so chkdsk ran on startup.  Then they ran into the bug in chkdsk that caused the problem.

I'm not sure what else Microsoft could have done.  They fixed the bug in a service pack, they supplied a hotfix for those who hadn't applied the service pack, and they posted an article about the problem to the KB (you can subscribe to a RSS feed of new articles if you want).  While it would be nice if the bug hadn't existed in the first place reality says no OS is perfect.

[ Reply to This ]



ddd[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#29)
by Anonymous User on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 01:12:07 AM PDT

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Bug?[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#2)
by Anonymous User on Tue Nov 27, 2007 at 09:45:17 AM PDT

It's not a bug. It's a feature. You pay extra for the privilege.

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video joiner[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#22)
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Bug all right... in a Windows Update patch[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#3)
by Anonymous User on Tue Nov 27, 2007 at 12:12:03 PM PDT

We had this exact same thing happen last month on a Windows 2003 server that was up to date with all prior patches including SP2. Which we installed after running the same updates on a test server for 3 days with no issues.

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Addendum[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#4)
by Anonymous User on Tue Nov 27, 2007 at 12:52:35 PM PDT

I just checked the ntfs.sys version on the server I mentioned above and it's 5.2.3790.3959 (srv03_sp2_rtm.070216-1710), which is a much newer version than is listed in the Kb article about the problem. So they either broke ntfs.sys again, never really fixed it, or we'd better start being even more careful (if we can figure out how) when patching servers. Does anyone have any idea for a foolproof testing procedure? Obviously, running patches on a test server isn't good enough.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Simular but different problem[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#5)
by Anonymous User on Tue Nov 27, 2007 at 01:24:23 PM PDT

We were using XCALCS to setup ACLs on a Windows 2003 server.  The server crashed one day and the admin decided to do a chkdsk.

Same thing happened.  All ACLs back to default values.

Ends up there was a conflict between XCALCS and CHKDSK.  You can Google search "xcalcs" and "chkdsk" and find the details in many of those links.

So this isn't like it's the first time Microsoft has had these issues.

What I've began to do is store my ACLs into a GPO.  We have everyone's home drive ACLs stored in a GPO, for example.

That way, when this happens again, we can run a GPUPDATE /force and the ACLs will reapply.   Or since we have "Apply security GPOs even if no change" enabled, and our GPO periodic update interval is set to 4 hours -- the problem would fix itself after about 5 hours or so.

While we are a long way from having this in place for all the ACLs, it is a workable solution.

Acmenews LLC

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



nolo updatamus[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#6)
by Anonymous User on Tue Nov 27, 2007 at 05:46:21 PM PDT

I have STOPPED doing updates on both my win mce and mac os x (10.4.10) machines. There is just too much out there on problems. I am not going to Leopard (which I have) or 10.4.11. My systems work, I back up regularly, and I am careful in my browsing. My next upgrade will be when and if I get a new computer.

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Last weeks update snafoo..[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#7)
by Anonymous User on Wed Nov 28, 2007 at 08:54:38 AM PDT

Our off-site 2003 Server web server received the MS updates last Weds. After the reboot - the MS software firewall didn't allow the internal network backup servers to connect to the server.. Our hosting company found this after 7 days of no backups... and reset the port needed for the backups on the internal network. 'duh MS..

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Microsoft isn't the only one.[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#8)
by Anonymous User on Wed Nov 28, 2007 at 11:25:49 AM PDT

Some years ago, when I was working for a healthcare organization, our hospital management software vendor shipped a sizable upgrade that we applied. Prior to the upgrade, I did the obligatory read of the release notes to see just what was being changed. This was at a time when HIPPA was going into effect so I was concerned about any changes that could affect our newly-written policies to bring us into compliance. After the upgrade was completed, I was running a routine report that dumped the user account settings on the systems that had been upgraded. Imagine my surprise -- and anger -- to find that ALL user accounts had their password lifetimes set to 9999 days. There was no mention of any user account changes in the release notes. After counting to ten (a few times) I called the vendor and asked them just why the heck it was necessary to modify user accounts. "Oh that change. We had another customer request that" was the reply. I sensed that they were quite surprised that anyone would take issue with their unannounced changes to user accounts. Of course, they wouldn't have been the ones to field the phone calls from angry user had their changes locked out users from the system, they certainly weren't the ones who had to change all the password lifetimes to the company standard, and they weren't the ones who had to then examine each and every user account to ensure that they hadn't been granted elevated privileges.

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programmers...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#9)
by TexasTJ on Wed Nov 28, 2007 at 12:45:54 PM PDT

This is why I refuse to consider most programmers and other "Computer Scientists" on the same level as engineers. The above bears witness to the lack of intellectual rigor possessed by these people.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


software engineers[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#10)
by ricke on Thu Nov 29, 2007 at 01:49:53 PM PDT

I have a BS in Mechanical Engineering with eight years in the aerospace industry and currently work as a Java developer. I wouldn't dream of calling myself a 'Software Engineer'.

Developing software is at the craftsman stage, around where Engineering was in the 18th Century. The nice thing about physical objects is that they generally show some signs before failing, even if you don't spot them. Software can run fine until some bad input causes it to fail catastrophically.

I'm sure there are some folks out there who are worthy of the title 'Software Engineer' but I've never worked with them.

To be fair, the problem mentioned above has "management" written all over it.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Software Engineers[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#12)
by Anonymous User on Tue Dec 04, 2007 at 03:07:37 PM PDT

I never really objected to the term "software engineer" until I got my Professional Engineering license in Electrical Engineering. After taking those examinations and having my qualifications reviewed, I realized that writing software (or even designing it) is not anything like "engineering".

In engineering, you apply known physical principles which derate in a predictable way (think strength of steel, power handling of a resistor, etc) and construct for safety margin. Systems fail in predictable and controllable ways.

In software, a single minor bug can crash the entire system catastrophically. There are no first principles to apply, or margins to rely upon.

I say, call them Software Architects and let the licensed architects deal with them....

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Windows update[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#11)
by Anonymous User on Tue Dec 04, 2007 at 10:30:36 AM PDT

I've solved the problem at home. I've switched to Linux and open office. With it I can do all my correspondence, all of my internet banking, and maitain my checkbook via spreadsheet so that I no longer have to deal with Intuit. This will be my first year not using tax software on the machine. I'll use the online version instead, via Linux. Money spent last year on upgrades to Windows related upgrades forcing problems and vulnerabilities: $350. This year: $0.

[ Reply to This ]


Switched to "Open Source"[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#14)
by Anonymous User on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 10:29:25 PM PDT

Look for a spell checker too!!!

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Virtual machines rock![ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#13)
by Anonymous User on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 01:47:23 PM PDT

Even though I am a Windows developer by trade, all my machines now run Linux. Any Windows work I do is done inside a VMware Workstation virtual machine. My whole development environment (WinXP, Visual Studio, etc.) is a VM that I can transfer from machine to machine. And if Windows gets bollixed up, I can just revert to my last snapshot (which I always set before doing an update). It seems to me that it would make sense to run a Windows Server as a VM too, under a robust host like Red Hat Enterprise Linux, for the same reason. That is what the company I work for is doing now.

[ Reply to This ]


Response from Microsoft[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#15)
by Anonymous User on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 03:50:01 PM PDT

Hi, I work on the local file system team at Microsoft. Sorry for the frustration this has caused you. In general, if file system corruption occurs, the goal is to repair the corruption as completely and safely as possible while ensuring the integrity of both the file system and the data itself. For this particular problem, the nature of the corruption is such that the most complete and safest way to repair the corruption and ensure the integrity of the file system is to reset the ACLs. As the KB notes, this problem affects only Windows Server 2003. In Windows Server 2008, we've made several changes to both NTFS and chkdsk to both reduce the likelihood of such corruptions and, if corruption does occur, improve the repair process such that its impact to the system is minimized. A good source for more information and assitance on issues like this is http://support.microsoft.com - the forums include a lot of technical users and Microsoft employees who can provide helpful troubleshooting.
Matt Garson
File Systems
Microsoft

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Great Article[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#31)
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