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Embroidery Piracy and EBay/PayPal Privacy

By Ed Foster, Section The Gripelog
Posted on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 12:10:05 AM PDT

The situation I described in yesterday's story (see "Embroidering on a Copyright Shakedown Theme") raises many troubling questions - questions I must admit I don't have definitive answers for yet. But in looking for answers, I found myself asking yet one more question: what duty of privacy does eBay and its PayPal subsidiary owe customers purchasing goods via their services?


As near as I can tell, the ESPC letters had their origins a little over a year ago when the group settled a lawsuit it had filed against eBay. The ESPC, which then as now seemed to consist mostly of embroidery design house Great Notions and its business partners, had accused eBay of being complicit in illegal sales of copyrighted designs. Terms of the settlement were not announced, but an ESPC legal spokesman at the time made it clear he thought it would enable them to go after the buyers as well as sellers.

By the way, I have no doubt that the embroidery design piracy problem is a serious one. And not all buyers who purchased a suspect CD on eBay did so in complete innocence. Some of the letter recipients that I've heard from - particularly those who got their first letter many months ago - acknowledge they paid a couple dollars for a disk claiming to have thousands of designs and so knew all along it was probably a bootleg copy. But there are also many well-respected independent "digitizers" - people who make embroidery machine designs of their own - who sell CD collections on the Internet at prices similar to the ones we discussed yesterday.

In all likelihood, the ESPC letters would not have received any attention outside sewing circles if it hadn't for lawsuits Great Notions brought against two Missouri women accused of selling, not buying, products that infringe Great Notions copyrights. Originally filed in Texas last year, the lawsuits were re-filed in Missouri this year. And for good measure, the ESPC filed a defamation suit against the two women over a Yahoo group it said they were running. In conjunction with those lawsuits, Greats Notions and ESPC's attorney issued subpoenas to eBay and PayPal for their records on the defendants' sales and to Yahoo for all information on anyone who'd posted in the Yahoo group.

That might have been a tactical error. Yahoo began notifying participants in the group that their information was being subpoenaed, which led to something of a stir. Not only did the Missouri defendants' attorney file motions to quash all the subpoenas, the Electronic Frontier Foundation filed in support of quashing the Yahoo subpoena, posting documents in the process that provide us with the best window into this whole affair. But as fascinating as the defamation suit is, it's a tangent to what we're talking about here. And whether the Missouri women are guilty of infringing Great Notions copyrights will presumably be decided in court, so we don't have to worry about that either.

On the other hand, the eBay and PayPal subpoenas are very relevant. Although the Missouri court has put a hold on all those subpoenas, there is an apparent coincidence here. The two buyers whose experience we discussed yesterday purchased their allegedly infringing CDs from one of the Missouri women. And, you will recall, they didn't receive their first letters from ESPC until late July. So how did the ESPC get their name, postal address, and transaction information it needed to send those letters? Did eBay or PayPal give them up?

Well, like all the questions here, we're not going to be able answer that one definitively, but eBay acknowledges it's a distinct possibility. For one thing, PayPal somehow failed to get the message about the motion to quash the subpoenas, so it provided information to the ESPC pursuant to the July 10th subpoena. For another thing, responding to ESPC subpoenas for seller and buyer information has become something of a routine activity for eBay/PayPal.

"You will have to check with the Embroidery Software Protection Alliance to confirm what their sources of information on buyers have been," an eBay spokesperson told me. "I can tell you that through the course of our conversations with them, they have actually filed multiple subpoenas, so it is entirely possible the folks you're talking to were subjects of an earlier subpoena." The eBay spokesperson also said that, contrary to what eBay buyers have been told when they asked eBay how the ESPC had gotten their purchase information, buyer information was not provided to the ESPC through eBay's VERO (Verified Rights Owner) program.

For the record, I did manage to get through briefly to the attorney for the ESPC and Great Notions a few weeks ago. She told me they generally get the information about eBay buyers from the sellers as part of their settlement with the ESPC. When I asked how they got the information about those who bought from the Missouri women --who appear not to have settled, after all -- the conversation to a somewhat abrupt end. She has not returned my subsequent calls. I also called the ESPC Executive Director over whose signature the initial letter to buyers goes out, but she said she cannot speak about the letter and referred me back to the ESPC attorney.

Of course, the eBay and PayPal privacy polices say they will provide your information to respond to subpoenas and other legal requests. (Actually, the eBay and PayPal privacy policies practically give them the right to sell your financial information on street corners, but let's not get into that now.) But that still leave yet one more question: Shouldn't eBay notify customers when information about their transactions is being subpoenaed? There is no legal requirement that eBay do so, their spokesperson told me, and eBay prefers not to insert itself in the middle of a legal process where it would not have all the answers to the questions customers would ask when given such notification.

That doesn't strike me as much of an answer, either. Sure, eBay has no desire to get involved in intellectual property disputes, and they obviously know from experience that ESPC is a litigious outfit. But these are eBay and PayPal customers who are receiving these legal threats instead, some of whom have done absolutely nothing wrong. Yahoo thought it at least owed its users some notification that information about them was being subpoenaed. Instead of just rolling over time and time again, doesn't eBay at the very least owe its customers the same?

< Embroidering On a Copyright Shakedown Theme | Norton Goes Back on Documented Features >


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Embroidery Piracy and EBay/PayPal Privacy | 124 comments (124 topical) | Post A Comment
Ebay will hopefully be destroyed[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#1)
by Anonymous User on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 05:31:08 AM PDT

I don't like Ebay. They have too few humans running things and too many pieces of poorly written software implementing poor decisions.

I bought a violin and a trombone off Ebay several years ago. The trombone transaction went very smoothly but the violin transaction was horrible. Combinations of spam filters (not Ebay's fault), bad power seller software (ebay's fault), poor seller controls (ebay's fault), no human intervention to resolve issues with sellers (ebay's fault), all contributed to a miserable couple of months for me.

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Who else is giving out info to the ESPC[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#2)
by Anonymous User on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 05:54:31 AM PDT

Makes a person wonder who else the ESPC has supeoned for information and who provided information without notifying these buyers??? Furthermore if the Missouri women have not been found guilty (or settled) of copyright infringement - what legal athorities have given the ESPC the right to any information on these buyers. It would seem to me that the ESPC would have follow some set of rules to gain personal info and EBAY/PAYPAL would have to demand proof that they have a LEGIMATE right to have this information. Who gave the ESPC the right to be JUDGE/JURY in every purchase out there? How can they be asking for payments from these buyers when these women haven't even been found guilty of copyright infringement? What a scam! This can't be good for EBAY/PAYPAL giving out personal info freely to someone who as far as I can see has no legal grounds to have this information. Maybe a class action suit against all those involved needs to be pursued.

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Spokesperson[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#3)
by Anonymous User on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 11:21:30 AM PDT

Ed, I wish you'd quit using the extremely cumbersome feminist phrase "spokesperson". You use it three times in this story. It doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. And you're not even consistent, since you used "spokesman" in the beginning. You could just use the generic "spokesman", or you could use both "spokesman" and "spokeswoman" if you must. But "spokesperson" is so clumsy and so politically correct it makes me want to vomit.

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Spokesperson is sexist too![ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#4)
by Anonymous User on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 11:26:41 AM PDT

To be truly gender neutral one would have to say "spokesperson or spokesperdaughter," since "son" is obviously male...

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Sexist verbiage.[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#5)
by Anonymous User on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 11:33:52 AM PDT

Its "Spokesperoffspring..."

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Knock it off[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#6)
by Anonymous User on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 11:38:20 AM PDT

Hey, cut it out! Obviously you're trying to re-write herstory.

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Spokesperson is sexist too![ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#38)
by Anonymous User on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 07:38:19 PM PDT

"Spokesman" is gender non-specific. "Man" refers to mankind. This is all troublemaker crap.

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(eyes rolling here)...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#12)
by Anonymous User on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 12:32:39 PM PDT

If that makes you want to vomit, I think your priorities in this world are waaaay out of whack.

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PC Verbiage[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#22)
by Anonymous User on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 05:44:20 AM PDT

While use of laborious PC language doesn't make me "want to vomit" it is indeed ludicrous and, as such, irritating.

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Re: Spokesperson[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#43)
by Anonymous User on Thu Sep 14, 2006 at 10:04:29 AM PDT

I prefer "mouthpiece."

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Hrm[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#90)
by Anonymous User on Sun Sep 17, 2006 at 06:40:03 AM PDT

Actually, the technical term is "marketroid", although "drone" is commonly used in casual speech.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Drone[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#100)
by Anonymous User on Mon Sep 18, 2006 at 07:50:20 PM PDT

You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.

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Ebay/Paypal[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#7)
by Anonymous User on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 11:39:15 AM PDT

Seems to me that since Ebay and Paypal charge for their services in assisting to sell an item, that they are profiting from the sale of copyrighted materials and as such should be held as responsible as the seller because of that profit. Let me put it another way. You have a car for sale. I help you by finding a buyer. I deliver the car and take the money. I then give you the money for your car and you give me a finders fee. Guess which TWO go to jail if the car was a stolen vehicle.

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Excellent Argument[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#8)
by Anonymous User on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 11:48:37 AM PDT

Now this is an analogy any judge ought to be able to follow!

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Except the analogy is faulty[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#11)
by Anonymous User on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 12:00:22 PM PDT

Unlike the example, Ebay didn't deliver the goods, Ebay didn't ever have possession of the goods and never even saw them. The seller, by placing the auction ad, agreed to terms that stated that what they were selling belonged to them. Ebay has millions of items on the board at any given time, they can't police everything and have the VERO program so that legitimate copyright holders can ask them to halt an auction when it's found that the seller lied to Ebay and its members. The situation is more like a newspaper accepting a an advertisement for a car that turns out to be stolen. The newspaper isn't held liable for the criminal act because they accepted payment for the ad. The only difference between Ebay and a newspaper is that Ebay has records on the buyer and the seller. As such, they're required to cough up everything they have on both sides of the deal when legally obligated to do so, just as a newspaper would have to do if they had information on the buyer.

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Yes..EBay and PayPal should not be giving out any [ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#94)
by Anonymous User on Sun Sep 17, 2006 at 08:30:18 PM PDT

They would NOT give out any byer or sells private information...should they pe held liable...??? they are the ones making the monies along with the sellers...Inicconce people buy there in god faith and get caught up in all this, it's not right...The shoud slam ebay for copyright selling products and the person who put it on there...thanks how I feel...Deliaduck

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Hiding behind fair use, infringement is rampant...[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#9)
by Anonymous User on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 11:49:27 AM PDT

While I agree ESPC is straying not only into questionable legal territory, but causing major PR problems they will regret, being in the same business I understand the frustration that leads to actions like ESPC's.

These "Grannies" are sophisticated copyright theives, even going so far as to post excerpts from the Fair Use clause of the copyright law in their *standard* e-mail signatures. There are dozens of *public* groups where file sharing is rampant on Google and Yahoo, and sites like Multiply and Sony's picture sharing site are full of *complete copies* of crafts books that have been scanned at high resolution.

Speaking from personal experience, until recently getting eBay or anyone else to remove stuff required a lot of jumping through hoops. It is extremely frustrating to see your work blatantly being stolen and have to spend all your time composing individual VERO requests for each violation.

You can say that ESPC is stupid to go after the "victims", but after watching so much money run out the door, the notion of "making an example" starts to sound good, when it may not really be prudent.

But for those of you who think this is all just beating up on little old ladies have not had to deal with posts like this one from one of these groups just last week:

"i have been a bad girl. multiply has thrown me out as a member because i had patterns on my site. how about that?"

"tsk, tsk! lol I only put the front covers up and then send the patterns to people I know. Seems to be working so far, it's not against copyright to show a front cover....I think! :)"

So much for "innocent little grannies"...

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I don't suppose...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#13)
by Anonymous User on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 03:21:32 PM PDT

...that it's occurred to you that there's a reason for the widespread disrespect for copyright law? It might have something to do with the fact that it has very little to do with "progress of science and useful arts" these days, and a whole lot more to do with greedy corporations' strategies for lining their own pockets with as little work (especially actual innovation!) as possible... At bare minimum, copyright terms need to be reined in to something sane, like 2 years or so. Anything longer encourages someone to create stuff until they get one "hit" and then coast, rather than keep on creating. I am dubious whether any length of copyright is needed at all now that it doesn't take a large capital investment to widely distribute the fruits, at least in the form of pure data or a blueprint. In fact, the very fact that lots of creative people get hugely rich (e.g. Stephen King) and keep on writing or whatever seems to prove that the copyright incentive is unnecessary for the most valuable creative types among us to be motivated. They have other reasons to do so, reasons that persist even when there's no further benefit in terms of raising their standard of living. If copyright was needed as per the theory, the current system would produce a lot of "work until you produce a hit and then promptly retire", which doesn't actually seem to happen! The other major reform short of outright abolsihment would be to make rights non-transferable. While an author could authorize others to distribute copies etc. (or open source would die), he or she could not give up that ability except by placing the work into the public domain (thereby becoming unable to DISallow its further reproduction, performance, and so forth). If rights were always held by the individual creator and never by virtually-immortal greedy corporations, things might be different...

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Making money with copyrighted work[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#18)
by Anonymous User on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 11:35:46 PM PDT

There are so many misconceptions here, I don't know where to start. You obviously have never made any money off of copyrighted work.

You are right that there are few Stephen Kings. Sounds like your opinion is that the rest of us are worthless and shouldn't even try, or should just "feel good" about our creations and leave it at that. At least you're not alone: it seems a lot of people have your attitude of "I think its too expensive and you should just give it to me for free." It's very easy to sit there and call us all "greedheads" without bothering to think about anything other than you own desire and lack of funds.

The fact of the matter is the vast majority of creative folks never get rich, but they make a modest living by creating LOTS of works that each sell a little OVER A LONG SPAN OF TIME. If we do as you propose and limit it to 2 years, for most of us that's giving away 80% of the revenue.

Your points are all very pure and idealistic, but I'd recommend you try looking at the world from the point of view of us who--if we can't make our modest livings creating stuff--will be reduced to creating hamburgers at McDonalds because we won't be able to eat or put a roof over our heads otherwise.

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Greedheads[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#47)
by Anonymous User on Thu Sep 14, 2006 at 12:52:42 PM PDT

That's a good one. I think you are a greedhead. Obviously you're not very talented and you do belong at McDonald's since you're not able to be creative long enough to support yourself any other way. Now why don't you leave all the old grannies alone and get a real job. Kids are back to school now so maybe McDonald's will hire you.

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Greed is good.[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#74)
by Anonymous User on Fri Sep 15, 2006 at 05:49:34 PM PDT

Greed is good. Very good, indeed.

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Length of Copyright[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#97)
by Anonymous User on Mon Sep 18, 2006 at 12:58:30 PM PDT

IMHO, the current term of copyright is obscenely long -- why should your great-grandchildren get royalties on something you created (lifetime of the author + 70 years)? One of the sanest suggestions I have heard came from Orson Scott Card, someone who makes his living as a writer, who suggests the longer of 100 years or lifetime of the author plus 20 years. On the other hand, since greedy publishers are anxious to force independent writers to perjure themselves by declaring their creations "Works for hire," the copyright on works for hire would be 20 years, not renewable. My own opinion is the pre-1976 law (28 years, renewable for another 28) struck a balance between giving the author long enough to realize a good return on his/her investment of time and energy and accumulating a healthy public domain. But that's an issue for another day.

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I'd really rather return to 14 years nonrenwable[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#102)
by Anonymous User on Tue Sep 19, 2006 at 07:07:14 AM PDT

If it was only 14 years and people anticipated the derivative works they could create from copyright protected materials then DRM schemes that didn't take into account an unlock mechanism after 14 years would be easily declared illegal.

Furthermore, think of the progress we'd see if a whole bunch of people even now were working on derivative works for Star Wars, Star Trek, Harry Potter, Stargate, etc. Paramount just announced the digital makeover of The Original Series of Star Trek. They will be replacing the original models with CGI, sprucing up the audio, improving the matte backgrounds, etc. That series is 40 years old and could have been redone years ago.

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Watch It![ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#141)
by Anonymous User on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 01:05:39 PM PDT

I was there when Star Trek came out. Don't remind everyone that is was 40 years ago.

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Have you read the Constitution?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#104)
by Anonymous User on Tue Sep 19, 2006 at 01:08:18 PM PDT

You stated the following: "If we do as you propose and limit it to 2 years, for most of us that's giving away 80% of the revenue."

The only reason the founding fathers agreed to allow copyright to exist was because they thought it would enrich the public domain. If a copyright holder is allowed to capture 100% of the revenue from his creation that leaves 0% for the public domain and defeats the purpose of granting the monopoly.

Is two years a good length of time? For software code it might be too long. For movies it seems far too short. The original legislation that enacted the copyright and patent clauses in the Constitution set a duration of 14 years.

Given the uninhibited power grabs on the part of well heeled copyright holders I think it would be good to return to this duration for copyrights at least. Software patents should all be voided since their logical foundations are dubious at best. Patents work fairly well for the pharmaceutical industry.

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Hrm[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#109)
by Anonymous User on Wed Sep 20, 2006 at 03:51:21 AM PDT

"The only reason the founding fathers agreed to allow copyright to exist was because they thought it would enrich the public domain. If a copyright holder is allowed to capture 100% of the revenue from his creation that leaves 0% for the public domain and defeats the purpose of granting the monopoly."

Well said. It wasn't even about the artists, per se, but about the art itself. I'm not sure even two years are needed; try zero, perhaps. Modern Internet-based distribution methods mean that you can open source something and it will become widely distributed or not on a meritocratic basis, with the costs of reproduction and distribution also being distributed. So one use for copyright, to get investment in the publishing and distribution infrastructure, is kaput. The other also seems to be, given that "copylefted" works are proliferating in many domains. It seems there's no shortage of creative output even from those who cannot expect to be remunerated by licensing exclusive rights; they either get their money in other ways that copyright isn't needed for, or they don't care about the money, on an individual basis.

"Is two years a good length of time? For software code it might be too long. For movies it seems far too short. The original legislation that enacted the copyright and patent clauses in the Constitution set a duration of 14 years."

For movies it sounds about right to capture most of the revenue through traditional means but get it into the public domain quickly. About half the money a movie will ever make tends to be made in the first few weeks, in theatres. Most of the rest is made in the first year after the DVD release, generally half a year to one year after the theatrical release. As long as the clock starts ticking when the work is first published, and not when production merely starts, two years seems adequate. The few movies that are perennial moneymakers are just lining the pockets of fat cats, having long since paid the rank-and-file grunts that did most of the work on them their final dimes. Trimming some of the fat there would be a good thing. cough*Disney*cough

"Patents work fairly well for the pharmaceutical industry."

But not for someone with, say, HIV disease, unless they're in Canada or western Europe. Otherwise, either controlling the disease will bankrupt them and wipe out their savings and pensions (United States, many other developed and developing countries) or the disease will simply kill them (most developing countries).

Laws are supposed to be enacted for the public good, not the good of a few latter-day robber-barons. The public good is not served by laws that result in lifesaving medicines being priced out of reach of most of the public that need them, while the rest pay through the nose to line the pockets of, mostly, executives -- half of them working on Madison Avenue* -- rather than actual lab workers and doctors and other medical experts and cure-finders.

*Have you noticed how much the pharmaceutical industry advertises? On TV -- including überexpensive Superbowl ads -- and in print, not to mention wining, dining, flying, and cruise-shipping doctors (check out a thriller by Robin Cook named Mindbend; most of the events are fictional, but the way doctors are wooed by big pharma is depicted realistically, short of being brainwashed while on those cruises that is). The amount of money they spend on advertising is obscene. I would argue that drugs be divided into two categories -- elective and necessary, with any lifesaving drug and any needed to enable someone to function (more) normally after an illness or injury being counted among the latter -- and that laws be passed requiring pharmaceutical companies to do only one type or the other, and be wholly divested of any financial interests that cross that divide. Then the ones that make necessary drugs can be banned from any kind of advertising except for publishing results in accredited medical journals. Doctors continuing-educate themselves from said journals, and so will know the facts -- and just the peer-review-filtered facts -- about what's available in the way of options to treat what. Useless or outright dangerous medications will simply never get used; the necessary role of advertising in letting people know of the existence of a product that does X gets fulfilled; and the obscene spending and reckless encouragement of the public to self-prescribe potentially dangerous medications goes away. Recreational substances of course continue to be advertised and sold as usual. The divide also makes it clear what should be insurance-claimable and what not.

Hold on, I think there's a couple of men in black suits knocking on my door. Probably pharm company lawyers, CIA, or both...

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Good discussion[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#111)
by Anonymous User on Wed Sep 20, 2006 at 06:15:14 AM PDT

I believe that patents are working spectacularly in the drug industry. It costs a fortune to develop useful drugs. Venture capitalists simply won't invest the kind of money needed to develop the drugs unless there exists enough of an incentive to do so. Without the drugs people die. Once they are developed under a patent, rich people live and poor people still die - for 20 years - after that time EVERYBODY lives. Without patent protection, investors don't invest money, without money drug companies can't develop drugs, and without the drugs EVERYBODY dies.

Drug Patents => Everybody wins after 20 years
No Drug Patents => Nobody wins ever

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Kinda sucks[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#113)
by Anonymous User on Wed Sep 20, 2006 at 08:06:18 AM PDT

for the poor folks those first 20 years then, eh?

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they die[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#114)
by Anonymous User on Wed Sep 20, 2006 at 02:18:48 PM PDT

... cleans out the gene pool.

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Thanks[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#115)
by Anonymous User on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 05:00:10 AM PDT

for the clever comment Adolf, I'm sure you'll have you master race in no time

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Clever[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#117)
by Anonymous User on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 07:13:41 AM PDT

The gene pool comment was pretty clever. It's called natural selection and all species go through it.

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Too bad [ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#118)
by Anonymous User on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 09:11:40 AM PDT

Drugs, medical procedures, and surgery have elimintated a large portion of natural selection... If you have enough money to afford them.

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The actual fix[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#116)
by Anonymous User on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 06:58:38 AM PDT

The actual fix is called insurance and spreading of risk. In this fashion we can still devote the resources necessary to develop the drugs while providing the benefits to those who would be otherwise unable to afford them in the interim. Sure it would be great if we had an infinite amount of resources or if people would do hard work just for the good of others but the first item doesn't exist and the second item has been tried repeatedly and failed.

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Issue[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#110)
by Anonymous User on Wed Sep 20, 2006 at 03:53:46 AM PDT

"For most of us that's giving away 80% of the revenue."

I must take issue with this statement.

You're not "giving away" anything, unless you already had it or were clearly entitled to receive it. People obviously disagree on the belief that you are entitled to receive it, in this case.

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The Grannies are getting smarter through necessity[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#15)
by Anonymous User on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 05:02:26 PM PDT

Your absolutely right, more grannies can quote copyright law verbatim and the numbers are growing rapidly. Hopefully they will continue to learn and understand exactly what they may or may not do. It's the best thing that can ever happen. They can now arm themselves against unfair policies and make informed decisions on their purchases. Of course there will always be those that know they are doing the wrong thing, but who died and made us ethics police. There are still more of those that are truly innocent, than those who are blatantly stealing. The ESPC is not trying to sort them out, they could care less. If you think they are trying to help out the small independent digitzers, think again. How many smaller independents have received money from their designs that have been stolen? How many of them have been asked to be included in the lawsuits? Those CD's being purchased from pirates are not just GN, AD, Brother, Disney, etc. But betcha money that nobody has ever called and told the independents that they found their designs on the same CD's that they are using in their lawsuits or have send any of those independent digitizers their portion of the $300+ checks. Think about it.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Grannies Getting Smarter[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#24)
by Anonymous User on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 07:01:27 AM PDT

One way to get smarter is to read. Here are a couple of Links with some very interesting reading that pertains to what the ESPC is really about. You will have to copy and paste these links into your browsers. http://www.ca8.uscourts.gov/opndir/06/08/053309P.pdf http://www.eff.org/legal/cases/ESPC_v_Ebert/ It looks like one thing this group has accomplished is for the courts to establish a definition of how an embroidery design file is defined. The ESPC has been trying to call it a software program; the courts now define it as data. The ESPC has been trying to define an embroidery design as "Intellectual Property" and protected as such. As it is not considered a software program, this may not be the case. Due to their law suits and obviously poor legal tactics, it looks to me that for an embroidery design to be protected; it MUST BE COPYRIGHTED with source code submitted. This means submitting the proper paper work to the copyright offices and paying the $45.00 fee for every design. Gee, I am sure all the independent digitizers out there can afford that! I also see that they have tried to force Yahoo to give them ALL the names of people who have been discussing this in a Yahoo Group which was formed for this purpose. My understanding is the group may have been formed by a couple of people who are being sued by the ESPC, and now the ESPC has filed or wants to file defamation suits against them as well. People posting there are posting under false identities trying to avoid the wrath of this ESPC. The subpoena wants ALL names even if these people have never posted to the group. The Electronic Frontier Foundation has filed a motion to block the subpoena for Yahoo to have to submit the names. It is all still pending, but I think this kind of really puts into focus what this group is really all about.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Newsflash[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#119)
by Anonymous User on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 05:43:57 AM PDT

The subpoena was quashed and ESPC told to submit a narrower-targeted one or forgeddaboudit.

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Eh[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#120)
by Anonymous User on Sun Sep 24, 2006 at 06:25:58 AM PDT

Self-correcting: the subpoena was withdrawn. Anyway, it's gone but a narrower-targeted one is supposedly in the offing.

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automated vero system[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#19)
by Anonymous User on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 01:08:47 AM PDT

It is my understanding that the ESPC uses an automated Vero submission program to submit to eBay, which has led to mistakes having been made with the veros and innocent digitisers being branded as "thieves".

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Grannies[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#23)
by Anonymous User on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 06:15:31 AM PDT

So you are saying all the letters from the ESPC go to "not so innocent Grannies?" You have to be kidding! I am sure that there are "not so innocent Grannies" out there who take advantage of the system as it sits today. I am also sure that there are the "innocent Grannies" just as described in these articles. If you think going after ALL is justified to stop the infringements, then I suppose you are one to believe it is ok to kill innocents in war as well? Just nuke em all, right? Give me a break! It is another scam using the laws to hide behind to justify the fleecing of innocent law abiding unsuspecting people. Its not rocket science and you do not have to have a degree to understand what is really going on. If you see it as anything else then you have to be one of the people doing the fleecing and benefiting from it!

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Economics these days[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#107)
by Anonymous User on Wed Sep 20, 2006 at 03:31:48 AM PDT

"It is another scam using the laws to hide behind to justify the fleecing of innocent law abiding unsuspecting people."

Or rather, it is an inevitable outgrowth of the way economics is practiced these days.

Fact 1: People have a fixed budget for things like entertainment, hobbies, etc.; and with costs of living the way they are, that budget doesn't tend to inflate and may even be slowly deflating.

Fact 2: Companies seem these days to need not just to show that they can stay in the black and turn a profit, but to show growth, to satisfy their stockholders.

Fact 3: The rate of population growth is slowing. Many developed countries are close to or even below ZPG; most of the rest to follow by 2015; worldwide ZPG expected around 2050, with a population of 9 billion, barring world war three.

So, the companies have to grow even though they have only fixed size slices of so many pies to dip into. The only way to grow is to wrest part of a slice from a competitor; for example, for one record label to get a larger percentage of most listeners' entertainment dollars than before at another label's expense.

One way for companies to do this is the usual methods of competition: try to convince people to change their buying decisions. Hence the louder, more obnoxious, and increasing levels of advertisement these days.

Then there's method number two, the quick and easy path that as anyone here should know leads to the Dark Side.

Force their hands in those buying decisions.

If people feel they have no choice, they'll pay your protection money/extortion and of course count it against whatever budgetary pie slice, e.g. hobbies or entertainment. They then spend that much less at one of your competitors. You get money; your competitors lose money; your shareholders are happy.

All of the issues regularly recurring here, from deadbeat technical support and customer no-service to evergreen clauses, WGA blues, RIAA lawsuits, DRM, and outright scams, will not abate until the underlying climate of economics changes -- either with a transition to post-scarcity economics (which, in theory, we should already have in the software and information objects department), or with a saner regime with regard to how capitalism is practised. (Or, I suppose, with communism, or world war 3, or something else that we probably don't want.)

The current system isn't healthy. Companies are rewarded for "value engineering" and obnoxious advertising and generally trying to extort as much while giving as little in return as possible, and because they still have limits to growth (e.g. when they capture all of everyone's available monthly spending cash for their category of goods or service) they still will inevitably stall out and then crash and burn. This mix of cost-cutting, depraved indifference, and short life-cycles in turn causes the present woes of pretty much all marketplaces -- from the labor market, where nearly everyone is either underemployed or overemployed, to the various markets where shoddy products for which there's effectively no customer service get foisted. Job security is considered quaint. Good customer service brings feelings of nostalgia on the rare occasions in which it's encountered these days. Shareholders even lose, long-run: stocks are wildly unstable, and companies are constantly forming, collapsing, engaging in mergers and breakups, and occasionally spectacularly self-destructing. Confidence in everything is eroding all around: in one's job's stability, in the goods and services one purchases, in the companies we do business with (that they won't leave us in some lurch or another, grossly misuse our personal info, hold us hostage, or simply overcharge us), in nearly all markets ...

The good news is that this state of affairs is clearly unsustainable, which means something will change and fairly soon. The bad news is that without the right things done by people of influence, it's likely to be a change for the worse (think "black thursday", if not "sell everything else and put it all into bomb shelter manufacturers"...)

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Don't blame eBay[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#10)
by Anonymous User on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 11:50:26 AM PDT

While I don't like eBay, it seems pretty clear that they have a legal obligation to provide the info once a subpoena (ordered by a judge) has been served. Yes, they could have dragged there feet rather than roll over, and yes they might have screwed up by providing info after the subpoena had been quashed, and yes they should have notified those who they gave up info on, but there are not the criminal here. Don't loose sight that ESPC is absolutely shaking down the buyers of these CDs when they have no legal standing to do so. The motivation is clearly to get the $300 extortion fee rather than to pursue the matter in court. Why would anyone with a legitimate claim to collect a six-figure judgement against someone settle for $300. It's an absolute scam and as someone suggested yesterday, a very likely candidate for mail fraud.

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The "extortion" letter[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#17)
by Anonymous User on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 10:40:08 PM PDT

Get your facts right about extortion. ESPC sent out a letter. Was it registered? Was it certified? Did you have to sign for it? If the answer to any of the above is NO, then pitch it and be done with it and remember not to purchase a $5 CD from Ebay without finding out for sure that the person selling has the rights to sell it. There is no extortion here. A letter came letting you know you bought illegal stuff and warning you to pay up $$$ to get amnesty. Well, is there anyone to say you got the letter? And destroy the CD while you are at it. Look at it as a life lesson.

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Check the definition of extortion[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#108)
by Anonymous User on Wed Sep 20, 2006 at 03:34:38 AM PDT

I'm not sure I understand your comment about checking my facts about extortion. Every definition I checked clearly indicated what ESPC is doing is extortion because they do not have the legal means to enforce their threat. From "FindLaw": Extortion is the obtaining of property from another, with his consent, or the obtaining of an official act of a public officer, induced by a wrongful use of force or fear, or under color of official right. Wikipedia has a better definition that indicates that the threat only has to be sent (does not even have to be received) to commit extortion so I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make about whether the letter was registered or certified. The threat of "pay or else" was made with no legal authroity to make such threat.

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Clarification re subpeonas[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#16)
by Anonymous User on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 10:30:16 PM PDT

I would like to clarify the "rumor" regarding the subpeonas to members of a certain Yahoo group where the two questionable ladies pulled the wool over the eyes of the very "BUYERS" whom they supposedly had gathered into the group to help against the "terrorist activities" of Ebay. A subpeona was issued to Yahoo by ESPC to reveal membership list of a group and not against any of the members of that group...the two ladies again amongst other rumors spread it about that ESPC had subpeonaed everyone on the group. The whole thing boils down to some of the most deviant characters on the internets who pose as grannies when in actuality they are no where granny age and feed upon the emotions of women who have no idea regarding any of the IP laws etc. These same ladies got caught not once, not twice but many times (look at their various Ebay IDS to see how many hundreds they gyped) and when their game was up, they rallied everyone who was a BUYER and receiver of the letters from ESPC to promote their own agenda of hate, malice and misinformation. Their game is up and they know it. Misinformation and lies have been their agenda and of their cohorts all along. And if ESPC sent out a message by a perfectly legal letter (yes a business can send a letter letting one know that you have stolen their property and you better contact them) perhaps the future of the Machine Embroidery world may be a bit better. Where a year ago, Ebay had hundreds and thousands of illegal auctions, today they are a handful.

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rate of piracy declining? I don't think so![ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#20)
by Anonymous User on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 01:13:34 AM PDT

Not true according to the members of the ESPC that recently left the coalition. Their reason for doing so was that the ESPC had made no difference to the rate of piracy and had simply caused bad PR for their company.

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ESPC LOOSING SUPPORT[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#21)
by Anonymous User on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 04:06:56 AM PDT

It's not just the buyers who are getting educated here - also the business's with affiliations of the ESPC are getting educated that consumers don't want to do business with them if they support the terrorist tactics the ESPC is using. This is how the public is going to educate the ESPC and their members - no future income from the holders of an ESPC letter and their friends, and and and...get the message.

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RE: ESPC LOSING SUPPORT?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#26)
by Anonymous User on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 09:56:32 AM PDT

Now is that a fact or supposition. Fact is that none of the members have ever left, only their parent companies have changed ownerships. Only ONE home digitizer has publicly announced that she is no longer supporting the ESPC and she never was a member. Never mind she herself has been involved in the past in sharing softwares.

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READ THE MESSAGE AGAIN[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#28)
by Anonymous User on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 10:26:53 AM PDT

You have definitely added your own assumptions as to what was written. It was clearly stated business affliations - and as a matter of FACT at least one company who had links to the ESPC has removed it from their website due to many letters they received concerning how the ESPC is going about their "EDUCATING PROCESS". But seeing as how you have brought up the digitizers - let me first say how much respect I have for alot (not all) of the digitizers out there. They create some wonderful designs for consumers. However after all the trouble consumers can get into, people are reading, and due to the inconsistencies in copyrights amongst the digitizers, MY belief is people are going to start purchasing from those who have the least amount of restrictions on their designs, just so they don't innocently make any mistakes on the usage of these designs. As far as what digitizers have done what - this is not published for any average consumer's knowledge and if they have wrongly shared designs then they have to deal with what they have done. You can't punish the world because there are a few wrong doer's out there. I would suggest you read what is written and respond to that just as the BUYERS of designs are expected to do.

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Which company is it?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#29)
by Anonymous User on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 11:39:50 AM PDT

Well, which company is it? Give facts.

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I'M HAPPY TO[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#30)
by Anonymous User on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 01:42:05 PM PDT

Embroidery.com has removed their link to the ESPC. I know there are links to some of the ESPC members but I really appreciate that they have recognized that the ESPC will cause some customers to not want to do business with them. I know there are many who will continue to buy from them because of this. I will continue to be a customer of them but I will also be VERY careful not to buy designs originating from members of the ESPC. I will ask questions of every company I do business with and it won't just be copyright information - it will also be ARE YOU A MEMBER or SUPPORTER of the ESPC. Based on the answer will be my decision as whether I will be a customer. I would not support any company that allows or condones actions such as the ESPC is doing to an innocent EBAY buyer. All of this definitely is taking the fun and enjoyment out of doing embroidery.

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ESPC and rumors[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#32)
by Anonymous User on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 02:59:09 PM PDT

Embroidery.com never was affiliated with ESPC. They only had the link of ESPC on their website. More rumors and HS. Give facts about companies belonging to ESPC backing out not someone who had a link. You do know why links are placed don't you. Its a sales thing. As for your fun being taken out of embroidery, then why gripe, leave the hobby, go find another. Who cares about your questionnaire. In the end, those who do not support ESPC may as well hang a big sign on their foreheads...we are for sharing of embroidery designs. Is that what you want, cos that's what you are saying.

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You must be an ESPC SUPPORTER[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#42)
by Anonymous User on Thu Sep 14, 2006 at 04:38:36 AM PDT

Well it's obvious you are only concerned with your opinion and not how to solve the education of copyrights. As stated before I do appreciate the talent of digitizers. I along with most don't want to infringe. I don't need to hang a sign because I DO NOT SHARE - DISTRUTE - RESELL any designs. I don't even sell embroidery. The facts were stated correctly and LINKS were taken down and you can call it whatever you want but the fact is this company does not condone what the ESPC is doing and are concerned about losing business enough to take down the link. YES IT'S A SALES THING and they obviously are concerned about their workers enough to not want to loose their customers. You are cetainly entitled to your opinion just as I am and I certainly am entitled to buy from who I choose. It just so happens you are one I certainly would not choose to give my hard earned money to and you have to decide how to tell your workers or yourself why you have a reduced amount of sales because there are plenty of consumers who don't want to be terrorized by an ESPC extortion letter. The crime was committed by the seller of these copyrighted disks not by the innocent (in most cases) buyers of an EBAY disk, and that's only if the sellers have been found guilty by a COURT OF LAW NOT JUST SOME COALITION who seems to have forgotten our country's belief that you are innocent until PROVEN guilty. I can say that when a digitizer gets it right with their copyrights they will have a huge business and those who make it so hard that a consumer has no rights to use these designs without FEAR will have a reduced business. This is also going to make more people learning to digitize on their own - maybe even get talented enough to have their own sight that allows consumers the basic rights to use that design, without jumping through hoops. There are always two sides to stories and everyone needs to be open to change. These designs are not Rembrandts and in fact there are alot of designs that are just garbage out there - and in the end consumers have rights to who they purchase from and who they don't. Copyrights need to be clearly stated so everyone has the right to make an educated choice on whether they can agree to these statements. You have the right to support the ESPC but do us all a favor and make sure that it is clearly stated on your websight so the consumers can make our choice on whether or not to do business with you.

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Which company[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#36)
by Anonymous User on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 07:11:15 PM PDT