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The Sheriff and Drive Imaging: A Case Study

By Ed Foster, Section The Gripelog
Posted on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 12:24:29 AM PDT

I have a little story to tell you today. It's a tale of cops and robbers, and what many will think is a rather shocking case of outright larceny. But who are the good guys and who are the villains? You be the judge.


In 1997 the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department (LASD) was in the process of opening a new jail facility called the Twin Towers. In order to allow PCs in the jail to access a mainframe-based application called the Automated Jail Information System, the Sheriffs needed a terminal emulation program. Managers for the LASD data network chose Wall Data's Rumba and purchased licenses for 2,000 copies, far more than they would initially need for the Twin Towers.

If you're an IT manager, you won't be surprised to learn that the LASD soon decided to include Rumba as part of its drive image - its standard set of system and application software that could be copied onto the hard disks of new or repaired systems. Not only did this significantly speed up the painfully slow machine-by-machine install process for Rumba and other applications, but it eliminated many of the install errors and integration issues that could occur as well. Of course, employing drive images in software deployment can also lead to using more copies of a program than you have licenses for, but on that score the Sheriffs had reason to think they were covered.

After all, this was a jailhouse, so security was not just a top priority - it was everything. And the mainframe database that Rumba was being used to access contained all manner of sensitive information, from the gang affiliation of prisoners to whether they'd served as informants. A system for keeping tight control over who could access what information, and from where, had been in place long before PCs started replacing the dumb terminals. As part of this security system, "Logical Units" (LUs) were assigned to specific PCs. A PC that had not been assigned an LU could not access the mainframe, so "ghost" copies of Rumba on such systems couldn't be used.

LASD officials claim they were quite open with representatives of Wall Data about Rumba being part of their baseline drive image and that they were using the LUs to limit how many copies of Rumba were in use. (Some PCs were set up to use a version of Rumba to access an accounting application on a Unix server as well.) But just how much Wall Data was told about LASD's software deployment and at what point is a matter of dispute. And while there's no record that anyone from Wall Data had any problems with the LASD's approach, neither does the LASD have anything in writing from Wall Data indicating that what they were doing was OK.

By now you've probably figured out how this story is going to end, even if my piece from yesterday didn't already give you enough of a clue. In 2000, a struggling Wall Data was acquired by NetManage, Inc. The next year, in a meeting with NetManage sales staff, LASD officials explained about the baseline images and the LUs. By this time, LASD had paid for a total of 3,663 licenses but through the drive imaging Rumba had been loaded on 6,007 systems. NetManage insisted that LASD must pay for licenses for all the copies, unused or not. LASD removed all the ghost copies and refused to pay. Settlement talks ensued, but the parties failed to reach an agreement -- a decision I would be willing to bet both organizations regret now. After all, once the lawyers ride into town in a story like this, they're the only ones with a chance at a happy ending.

But it is now in the hands of the lawyers, so in my next weblog entry, we'll take a look at how the courts have handled the case of Wall Data vs the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department. It is a complicated case that raises many issues, so - whichever side you may be inclined to view as the wronged party here -- you might want to suspend judgement until then.

< Do Software Customers Own a Copy? | A Matter of Trust >


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The Sheriff and Drive Imaging: A Case Study | 31 comments (31 topical) | Post A Comment
Redress is the only issue now[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#1)
by MrsPost on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 08:45:34 AM PDT

From what you've written, the LAPD removed non-compliant copies that had been installed. They have documentation on which copies actually had been used. So they are now in compliance, even though it's not the compliance the software vendor wants - buying more copies.

Sounds like anything the software company attempts to bring to trial will be more of an extortion attempt ("Your Honor, they installed more copies than they owned. They removed them when we told them that. They need to give us money.") than any honest attempt to straighten out the situation.

Too bad the LAPD didn't have a paper trail but their actions show that they were aware of potential issues and took steps to minimize them. Of course, having 2 images - one with Rumba and one without - would have prevented this entire situation. Hindsight is always 20-20.

[ Reply to This ]



Actually, NOT settling is good...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#2)
by Anonymous User on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 10:15:18 AM PDT

Personally, I think that going to trial is great news. Hopefully, there will be some sort of clarification regarding licensing, copying, ownership, etc. There are 2 reasons to my logic... 1) A government entity has "seemingly endless" resources (attorneys on the payroll, etc.) to which they can defend this case, even on appeal. Corporations, on the other hand, have shareholders to consider so in the vast majority of cases it's better to settle. 2) If a government entity has difficulties with vague licensing schemes, then that & other government entities will use the opportunity to press for clarity, and everyone benefits.

Sure, the LA taxpayers are the ones that will have to foot the bill for something positive to come from this mess (and for making the lawyers rich), but everyone will be better off in the long run, IMO...

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#30)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 11:22:10 PM PDT

出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


A simple and reasonable solution...[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#3)
by Anonymous User on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 10:20:10 AM PDT

I'm curious as to why the LASD just didn't make two drive images --one with Rumba, one without. Then a PC that needed Rumba could have the image WITH Rumba installed, and the one without could get the second image that didn't include it. It wouldn't take up that much more hard disk space, and sounds like a simple solution to me. It would have saved a lot of time and trouble, and still made it easy to load out Rumba on multiple machines that needed it.

[ Reply to This ]


simple solution?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#4)
by Anonymous User on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 11:40:55 AM PDT

On the surface that sounds simple - but now lets say you have 3 optional software packages - now you need nine different images. Also lets say as the infrastructure grows out for a couple years you get 3 different desktops and 3 different laptops - now you have 54 (6 x 9) images.

Each of these images should be updated every time there is a patch to the software - a real maintenance headache.

I think it very reasonable to have the bits for a software package on a system and not license if it is not usuable through another reasonable control - which it sounds like they had.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Math is off[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#5)
by sconeu on Thu Aug 03, 2006 at 08:07:01 AM PDT

Nitpicky, I know, but you only need 8 basic images, assuming a homogeneous hardware environment -- 2 ** 3.

--
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the United States of America.
[ Parent | Reply to This ]



How about this?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#9)
by Fushigi on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 06:24:00 AM PDT

Have a single software image per hardware platform (brand x model y notebook) that included all common software and then de-install common-but-not-needed apps like Rumba. It's still an extra step in the PC build process but at least you don't have so many images to maintain and update. And as long as apps are reasonably good about how they uninstall, the uninstalled app shouldn't leave behind any fragments that would be problematic.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Re: Simple Solution?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#12)
by Anonymous User on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 09:30:29 AM PDT

On the surface that sounds simple - but now lets say you have 3 optional software packages - now you need nine different images. Also lets say as the infrastructure grows out for a couple years you get 3 different desktops and 3 different laptops - now you have 54 (6 x 9) images.

At that point, that's what a Microsoft RIS server is for, or perhaps ZenWorks if you're on the Novell bandwagon. I didn't mention it because at the time the LASD got this software, that may not have been an option. But if you're going to have that much diversity, then you craft a basic image with all user-standard apps, and then use software policies and/or a RIS server to blast out apps to machines that need it, which still keeps your licenses in check. Like a lot of software companies do, I pretty much define a machine as having a license if the software is installed on it, unless the original publisher has its built-in auditing in its program to limit concurrent use according to number of licenses.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#29)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 11:21:59 PM PDT

出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Big question[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#6)
by Anonymous User on Thu Aug 03, 2006 at 09:25:38 AM PDT

Were the types of licenses spelled out when purchased? Were they "per seat" (computer/concurrent user) licenses? Were they "per user" licenses? (hence the machines that can't use it don't count) Were they "per installation" licenses? (each machine it's installed on counts against a license)

[ Reply to This ]


Re: Big question[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#7)
by Ed Foster on Thu Aug 03, 2006 at 11:00:26 AM PDT

From what I can tell from the court documents I've read, it appears they were per seat by computer, but not concurrent. As they were in a jail, a number of the workstations had to be manned 24 hours a day, so it was understood there would be users on different shifts using the same machine. But as I'll discuss in a bit more detail later, one of the problems with this case is that all license negotiations between Wall Data and the LASD are rendered meaningless in the eyes of the court because there's a EULA involved. -- Ed

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Open and shut case[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#8)
by Anonymous User on Thu Aug 03, 2006 at 11:12:47 AM PDT

The court ruled there had been a copyright violation. Really, it's an open and shut case. They bought a few thousand licenses, but made 6000 copies. Unless there's some agreement to the contrary, it's a clear copyright violation.

Note that a concurrent license agreement would have made everything okay. They probably could easily have gotten such an agreement back when they made the purchase, but they didn't.

There's also some real logic behind the decision. They got a benefit out of those 6000 copies that they wouldn't have gotten if they had made only the number they were allowed. The extra copies made it only a matter of minutes to enable someone to move to a different machine to do their work. Even though they never had more than their licensed number in use at any given time, the added flexibility (that they hadn't paid for or gotten an agreement for) was worth a lot.
--
Ron

[ Reply to This ]



Added flexibility...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#10)
by Anonymous User on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 09:34:11 PM PDT

...isn't an exclusive right according to the Copyright Act, though. The Copyright Act doesn't say that copyright holders have the right to completely control all use and monetize every possible benefit, charging extra for flexibility for example; it just limits distribution and public performance.

Private copying is fair use. Would they be sued if they made 3000 backup copies? Because 3000 unused copies is basically the same thing.

The whole system needs to be made saner. First, throw out everything mentioning "copying" itself in copyright law and clearly express its intended focus, which is on granting creators control over distribution and performance. Second, throw out the whole thing with EULAs. Shrinkwrap, clickwrap, and browsewrap are null and void, except for agreements you click through to get an online account of some sort, such as at a Web forum -- and the latter are not enforceable except by terminating the account. No need for lawyers and all that mess there, really.


[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Fair Use[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#15)
by Lazlo Nibble on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 06:37:03 PM PDT

> Private copying is fair use.

Private copying is not automatically fair use, and an "unused copy' is not "basically the same thing" as a backup. You're allowed to make a backup for archival purposes only. Distributing executable copies of an application to 3000 desktops in your organization serves no legitimate archival purpose.



[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Screw that[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#17)
by Anonymous User on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 05:42:03 PM PDT

Why do you think companies should be able to charge even for unused copies? The customer gets no added value, so charging more is unjustifiable.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#36)
by maderikapapa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 03:05:48 AM PDT

出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#31)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 11:59:33 PM PDT

出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Key Servers[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#11)
by tscoff on Sun Aug 06, 2006 at 06:57:29 AM PDT

There are products out there which can be used to manage how many licenses of an application can be run at the same time.  Where I work Quark sold us a "lab pack" of 30 licenses of Quark xPress.  We had to install the Quark License Administrator server on one of our servers and that server counts how many copies of Quark are running at a time.  When we get over the number of licensed copies the next person who tries to run a copy is prevented from launching the program.

Microsoft's SMS server had that capability for all software products and Sassafras Key Server is another product that does the same thing.  It makes it much easier to stay in compliance and only run the number of copies of a product which you're licensed for.

[ Reply to This ]



LASD Solution[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#13)
by Anonymous User on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 11:10:36 AM PDT

Throw all the NetManage people in jail and then refuse them access to the world because they don't have a license. Civil rights you say??? No copies available.

[ Reply to This ]


yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#32)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 11:59:42 PM PDT

出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Or, a MUCH better solution...[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#14)
by rodak on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 01:06:21 PM PDT

Instead of using the bloated, overpriced Rumba, they should switch to PassPort/3270 from Zephyrcorp. They have both fat client (which isn't really fat at all) and web client (requires only an ActiveX control). At LAPD's level of usage, it would only cost them $18/year per LU for maintenance, upgrades and support, and it's per LU, not per physical installation. We've been using it for years, and we just love it. (and no, I don't work for Zephyr!)

[ Reply to This ]


3270 alternative[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#16)
by Fushigi on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 05:55:43 AM PDT

If all you need is 3270 emulation, MochaSoft does it for $25 for a single license or just $250 for a company-wide license. http://www.mochasoft.dk/tn3270.htm

I've been using their 5250 products (Windows & Palm OS) for years.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#33)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 11:59:59 PM PDT

出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


TCO and OSS[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#18)
by Anonymous User on Fri Aug 11, 2006 at 10:56:40 AM PDT

It's cases like these that make the case for open source compelling.

Anti-OSS forces will warn company IT managers about the hidden costs of open source, claiming it is no better or actually worse in terms of total cost of ownership (TCO) than commercial software, because (and here's where the real bunkum begins) it's unsupported, buggy, amateurish, or whatever other nonsense.

Of course, these are all paid shills.

The truth is the big hidden TCO costs are squarely in their own camp. Use commercial software, and you have to cope with "license compliance management" or similar, maybe even put up with audits; shoddy, never-there, possibly money-demanding support techs; sunset policies, activation, and the like; whatever copy protection or license management cruft is there adds to the bug count without adding value; there's usually some bloat adding bugs without useful features, regardless; and then of course there's the spectre of the vendor disappearing, or a currently-decent vendor becoming evil under new management (esp. after a buyout or merger).

Open source is much safer, with fewer uncertainties. No single vendor has a monopoly on its maintenance and support, so there's no single point of failure there. There's no licensing, auditing, activation, sunsetting, or copy protection hassles. What licensing there is is actually a real license to do something otherwise not permitted (distribute copies and/or derivative works) with restrictions that only constrain you if you intend to do so, and which generally just take the form of requirements to contribute your improvements back into the pool by making the source code of distributed modifications available under the same (or a similar) license. If you don't distribute anything but merely use it in-house, you can generally use it as you see fit without fear the BSA's license police or a process server will be knocking on your door wanting an audit or worse. Of course, OSS documentation will disclaim any and all warranties, express or implied, including merchantability or fitness for purpose, but then, so will the EULA for any commercial software you buy, so the two come out even there. (And some of those, particularly the last two, may not be enforceable in all jurisdictions anyway.)

An OSS license is actually a license, while a commercial software EULA is actually a contract of adhesion.

I know which I tend to prefer.

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Hmm[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#19)
by Jarvis L on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 12:43:18 AM PDT

This case seems to be difficult to judge in, but so far I think I'll go for the LASD. But I'll wait and see what happens.
Jarvis, IT Professional currently working on the menopause medication project.
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yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#34)
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Lychee[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#26)
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13,14 April Bahaa[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#27)
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kral[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#28)
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