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Reader Voices: Contract or Coercion?

By Ed Foster, Section The Gripelog
Posted on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 12:13:40 AM PDT

In the comments posted on my website, you will often see two very contradictory positions taken by readers who seem absolutely certain they are correct. Some say that end user license agreements, no matter how onerous or one-sided their terms, are completely binding legal contracts. Others say that sneakwrap terms that you don't get to see until after the purchase have no legal standing whatsoever. So which side has it right?


"I would suggest everyone here stop posting their opinions and suppositions about what they think the law is or should be and take a look at the actual U. S. copyright law," one reader wrote recently. "Copyright owners automatically have exclusive rights to their own works. Whatever rights they decide to exchange for money is their choice. This is often indicated in the "EULA" when it comes to software. Some give away all rights to copy and distribute and others choose to sell the right to make a single copy, or two copies, or the right to use without restriction on a single server, etc. -- whatever they want. Even most open source software has complex and precise licensing restrictions. Ever read through the GPL? Bottom line: it's the author's choice and it's protected by law. Get over it. If you don't like what the author is willing to exchange for your money, return it and find something that better suits your fancy. But, please, quit crying about evil musicians/programmers/companies that don't roll over and give away their legally protected intellectual property. Geesh."

Well, if true, that would settle things, but some who have actually looked at U.S. copyright law might say this post also contains some questionable opinions about how the law works. Doctrines of copyright law like Fair Use and First Sale actually put considerable limits on what rights a copyright owner can choose to withhold. And the U.S. Copyright Act says virtually nothing about license agreements one way or the other, as that's a matter for state contract law.

Those who believe that EULAs aren't enforceable argue that contract law has always demanded there be some mutual meeting of the minds rather than one side forcing the other. "Many hundreds of years of established contract law state that you CANNOT be held to 'agreements' you were not fully aware of in advance," another reader wrote recently. "This is a very basic and essential ingredient in any contract. Legally, anything else is not a binding contract. Therefore EULAs carry absolutely no weight of law and are legally unenforceable. Even if EULAs were otherwise legally binding, they would constitute a 'contract of adhesion' that is unilateral and non-negotiable ... Courts have also regularly upheld the concept that any contract that cannot be negotiated in advance is not a real contract. Rather, it more closely resembles an attempt at coercion. Contracts of Adhesion are routinely thrown out of court, with prejudice."

As much as I applaud such sentiments, they unfortunately no longer reflect how all our courts interpret contract law. While some judges still throw out obviously unfair or unconscionable terms, recent years have seen a number of courts -- those involved in the Blizzard case, for example -- that have embraced contracts of adhesion with open arms. Fair use rights explicitly granted by copyright law are, at least in some jurisdictions, blown away by one "I Agree" click.

But when federal copyright law and state contract law are in conflict, isn't federal law supposed to win? "License terms that preclude the right to transfer use of copyrighted works to other machines, other people, or other business entities clearly violate the fair use rights provided by copyright law," wrote another reader. "The owners of the copyright are basically saying 'we choose to fully exert our rights under copyright law' while at the same time saying 'we do not recognize yours.' Therefore, although obviously not tested in the courts, how could the owners of the copyrighted works expect us to honor their basic copyright rights when they do not honor ours? Early in the childhood of rented movies on VHS tape the movie industry sued public and private entities who lent or rented original movies to their customers or patrons citing that use rights to the work were "non transferable", and they lost. Why hasn't this legal concept been applied to software licenses?"

So which side is right? Well, we could be generous and say they both are, but it's probably far more accurate to say they are both completely wrong. The one thing that is absolutely and undeniably true is that, more than a decade into the age of the Internet, our legislatures and our courts have totally failed to resolve the very basic questions technology has raised about our traditional rights. And perhaps we could also agree on who is to blame for this sad state of affairs: you and me.

< A Proprietary Charge For Motorola | IBM's Brand Takes on a Different Nuance >


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Reader Voices: Contract or Coercion? | 39 comments (39 topical) | Post A Comment
Comment to your reader...[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#1)
by Jarulf on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 05:45:18 AM PDT

From the article:

>"I would suggest everyone here stop posting
>their opinions and suppositions about what they
>think the law is or should be and take a look at
>the actual U. S. copyright law,"

First of, this site as well as many others, and more importantly software and their EULA are not limited to the USA, hence you can often get views and opinions that are not necessarily completely focused on USA.

Second, contracts has nothing to do with copyright so if you want to discuss contracts and their applicability one would have to look at US (if we stick to USA) *contract* law as well as US *consumer sales* laws. Those are the ones that will help you out, not copyright laws.

Further:

> "Copyright owners automatically have exclusive
>rights to their own works. Whatever rights they
>decide to exchange for money is their choice."

This is not completely correct. They have *a few* exclusive rights to their work. Those rights are specifically mentioned in the copyright law. Any right not specifically mentioned the copyright holder has no control over (at least not due to copyright). In addition, the exclusiveness is not completely total, there are exceptions for when others can for example create copies without it being infringement. Some are mentioned specifically (like the right to make copies of software that are needed for running it) while others are summed up in general terms such as the "fair use" tests.

So, only those rights that are specifically given to the copyright holder, does the copyright owner have any control over. Typically those are things normal users of the work will not have any problem with nor do.

The rights given as exclusive to the copyright holder are more or less the same regardless of country although differences do exist. Here are the main ones as written in the US copyright law:

Subject to sections 107 through 122, the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following:
(1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;
(2) to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work;
(3) to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;
(4) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and other audiovisual works, to perform the copyrighted work publicly;
(5) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, to display the copyrighted work publicly; and  
(6) in the case of sound recordings, to perform the copyrighted work publicly by means of a digital audio transmission.

End of quote.

Section 107 through 122 lists limitations to the exclusiveness as I mentioned above.

More:

>This is often indicated in the "EULA" when it
>comes to software. Some give away all rights to
>copy and distribute and others choose to sell
>the right to make a single copy, or two copies,
>or the right to use without restriction on a
>single server, etc.

Actually, most everything in a typical EULA has absolutely NOTHING to do with copyright or copyright related rights. As noted in one of the exceptions in the copyright law, there is no need for permission to make any copies that are needed for normal use/running of the software. Apart from that, you are of course only allowed to install and use your software on one computer. For such use, you need NO additional permission or contract.

Installing on more than one computer can and typically will require permission though, at such time you may want to get the permission from the copyright holder unless you buy or otherwise quire more than one copy to start with.

As for "use", that is, as noted above in my quoting of the US copyright law, not an exclusive right of the copyright holder, hence nothing the copyright holder can restrict through copyright, that is, you don't have to agree to anything to use the software, should you not want to and there is no need to get any permission for use any more than you need a contract that permits you to use your newly bought toaster.

>Even most open source software has complex and
>precise licensing restrictions. Ever read
>through the GPL?

The GPL is a license needed if you want to redistribute the software (with or without changes). As noted in the quote from the copyright law I pasted above, such things are not allowed without the permission of the copyright holder. The GPL is such a permission with the restrictions. You do NOT need to agree to any GPL to simply use the software, it is a license for (re)distribution, including making new copies and making changes to the copies. That has nothing to do with EULAs.

My suggestion is thus for however wrote to you suggesting that people read the copyright law, to actually read it him or herself to understand it, its limitations and what actually applies and how copyright work. In addition, I suggest reading of contract law as well as consumer sales laws (or in the case of software sells to non consumers, sales laws). This helps since contract law has nothing to do with copyrights and copyright laws has nothing to do with contracts.


[ Reply to This ]



EULA are NOT enforceable[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#2)
by srynas on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 06:10:03 AM PDT

My opinion (and I am not a lawyer) is that EULA's do not constitute valid contracts. However, we need to recognize that "CONTRACT" law and "COPYRIGHT" law are two different things.  Below are links to "COPYRIGHT" law.
--------------------------------------------------
Link to U.S. Copyright Office:
http://www.copyright.gov/
--------------------------------------------------
Cornell Law School Link to US Code Title 17 - Copyright
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode17/usc_sup_01_17.html
------------------------------------------------
The reader cited above makes an erronous statement: "Copyright owners automatically have exclusive rights to their own works. Whatever rights they decide to exchange for money is their choice." Copyright law does NOT give an author exclusive rights. It would appear that the reader is really referencing the use of an EULA as a contract of adhesion.  

House report no. 94-1476 states: "The judicial doctrine of fair use, one of the most important and well-established limitations on the exclusive right of copyright owners, would be given express statutory recognition for the first time in section 107. The claim that a defendant's acts constituted a fair use rather than an infringement has been raised as a defense in innumerable copyright actions over the years, and there is ample case law recognizing the existence of the doctrine and applying it."
-------------------------------------------------
Contract Law: See Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract_law
------------------------------------------------
Adhesion Contracts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adhesion_contract
-----------------------------------------------
The obvious logical fallacy of the adhesion contract is that upon purchase of a product you could give the vendor your own version of an EULA.  If the vendor can do it, why not the consumer? So who's verson would constitute the legally binding binding contract, your's or the vendor's?

Wikipedia had the following: "Courts in the United States have faced the issue of shrink wrap contracts in two ways. One line of cases follows ProCD v. Zeidenberg which held such contracts enforceable (eg. Brower v Gateway [4]) and the other follows Klocek v. Gateway, Inc which found them unenforceable (eg. Specht v. Netscape Communications Corp. [5]). These decisions are split on the question of consent, with the former holding that only objective manifestation of consent is required while the latter require at least the possibility of subjective consent."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrink_wrap_contract
------------------------------------------------
Klocek v. Gateway, Inc., et al.
2000 U.S. Dist. Lexis 9896, 104 F. Supp.3d 1332 (D. Kan., June 16, 2000)
http://www.phillipsnizer.com/library/cases/lib_case209.cfm
"Court holds that Gateway's Standard Terms and Conditions, supplied along with and inside the packaging of a computer purchased by the plaintiff, do not create a binding contract with that consumer under either the law of either Missouri or Kansas. The court reached this conclusion despite the fact that the Standard Terms provide that they will constitute the terms of such an agreement if the consumer retains the computer for more than 5 days, and the consumer so retained the computer."

[ Reply to This ]



So Who is the Culprit and What is the Fix?[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#3)
by Anonymous User on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 12:55:40 PM PDT

This handwringing about notorious EULAs has been a recurring theme for a long time now. Everyone seems to have a strong opinion often diametrically opposed to the very educated and experienced opionions of others. What seems to be universally common among all of us is our growing frustration with the way things are. We see the courts ignorantly attempt to legislate from the bench causing diametrically opposed opinions among themselves which become the pseudo law of the land through precidence decisions that, uncontested and in aggregate, become the new increasingly jumbled law of all the land.

The culprits are without doubt found among our US legislators in both House and Senate of both parties. They seem to have chosen to be willfully and persistently ignorant of high-tech issues. We continue to vote for charismatic, well-spoken people with attactive faces many of whom are often in reality empty shells already sold out to the highest bidders. Once such already compromised people are elected, they have the responsibility to create laws for the good of all. Instead, many of they instead bow to the lobbyists who have largely bought and paid for them which lobbists often ghost write the very laws that continue to burden instead of liberate us. And we continue to vote for these idiots who would rather rabble-rouse against each other, jockeying for the attention of the gullible media by crafting the latest well crafted sound bite rather than being about the nation's business. They churn about looking busy but little value comes from the vast amounts of our tax money they confiscate from us.

So who is the real culprit? We are! Our inattention to the elective process has allowed this to happen. While there are some wonderful shining stars in both parties in the US government, the clashing sounding brass and tinkling cymbols of the few exceptionally inept buffoons in Congress drown out the reasonable voices of the qualified. And the qualified allow them to get away with it. But we --- we continue to elect the same buffoons, over and over and over. So we are the real culprits.

If we really don't like what is going on and refuse to fix the real problem, then we are part of the problem instead of part of the solution.

[ Reply to This ]



Lawyer's view[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#4)
by Anonymous User on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 01:37:35 PM PDT

I am an attorney, and I have been handling litigation for over 30 years. I keep up with technology because it is interesting and because my clients are technology companies. I always enjoy reading the comments in which non-lawyers opine on what the law is. I thought your readers might be interested in how experienced lawyers view issues like EULAs and copyright and licensing. The first thing to understand is that law is not like engineering. In fact lawyers tend to joke about how all engineering trained people think they don't need lawyers, because they can understand "the law" by reading it. What lawyers know that engineers (and that includes software engineers/programmers) don't know is that the law is not a specification. You can't just look the law up and then you know what is going to happen. Any analogy as to what the law is will eventually break down, but one way to look at "the law" is that it is a continuous argument between competing interests. A judge, as Oliver Wendell Homes said over a century ago, (if he/she is a good judge) will try to rule in such a way that the rule, which is called an "opinion" for good reasons, will not ignore prior precedent and at the same time not produce an unacceptable result. Consequently, when we lawyers are looking at how a case has been subsequently cited we will see phrases like "distinguished," "followed," "disagreed with," "explained," etc. to describe how the subsequent court treated the case. If you want to know what the law is regarding sneak wrap agreements, you may be in for some frustration, because there isn't a black and white answer. If I am evaluating a specific case in which, for example, I am representing someone who wants a EULA agreement to not be enforced, I am going to look at what my client specifically wants. Does my client want their money back on a piece of software that does not work (I will probably win no matter what the EULA says as long as I come up with an argument and my client is telling the truth), or does my client want to sell time shares to use the software (maybe that is a silly example, but it is a sure loser). Does the software do something bad to my client's computer, ala Sony rootkit (winner), or does my client want to install the software on 100 hundred computers although the license is only for one (loser). There will be harder cases than those I have used as examples. In those cases conservative judges, and federal judges are as a rule very conservative these days because they are overwhelmingly Republican, will tend to favor the EULA and more progressive judges (some state judges and a few federal judges) will tend to favor the consumer/customer. (I am not making a partisan statement, that is just the way it is.) These cases that are close calls give rise to the expression lawyers use, "hard cases make bad law." Overall, the particular facts of a case have much more influence on the outcome than a statute or prior case. Some law is so well settled that there is little left to argue about, but in the EULA area there is so little law that we lawyers will likely be able to feed our families for some time to come. Kurt Arbuckle

[ Reply to This ]


Ahhhh...The Real Culprit[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#5)
by Anonymous User on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 02:48:11 PM PDT

As the originator of the "culprits" in the EULA mess and after reading the contribution from a practicing attorney, Q.E.D.

The attorney speaks candidly.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Fortunately...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#6)
by Jarulf on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 11:45:49 PM PDT

...we engineers at least have embraced the linguistically invention called "paragraphs" that split the text up in sections. For a short moment, I thought lawyers would have been doing the same but now I have my doubts....

Sorry, could not resist. On a more serious note though, it is worth pointing out that not the whole world uses the same system for laws, courts, precendents and such as in the US, which unfortunately sometimes people tend to believe.

Considering EULAs is basically just contracts, I find your following statement quite interesting:

"Some law is so well settled that there is little left to argue about, but in the EULA area there is so little law that we lawyers will likely be able to feed our families for some time to come."

I would have thought contract laws and consumer sales laws for that matter quite settled in the US.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



They were[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#8)
by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 08:19:47 AM PDT

The software industry decided to unsettle them, since they saw a way to make a few billion fast bucks doing so.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#39)
by maderikapapa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 12:35:03 AM PDT

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[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Re; fortunately...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#9)
by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 10:41:29 AM PDT

"...we engineers at least have embraced the linguistically invention called 'paragraphs'" I wrote it in a word processor and copy/pasted it into the comment area. In the comment area it had paragraphs. When it came up in preview it did not. I did not know how to fix it, so I let it go. Just as I will let your phrase "linguistically invention" go. In fact I just wrote a response to the rest of your post (this time I wrote it in the comment area) and it did the same thing. So I won't post it

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Paragraphs[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#11)
by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 01:14:33 PM PDT

I'm not the poster who made the comment about paragraphs, but the easiest way to maintain paragraphs is to select "Plain Text" from the drop down list below the comment box.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


It was not meant,....[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#13)
by Jarulf on Thu Apr 13, 2006 at 12:08:40 AM PDT

That comment of mine was not meant to be taken to serious. I think you ran into the problem of the formating on these forums, Has happened to me too. I have switched it to "Plain Text", that way it keep blank lines and other such things. By the way, English is not my native language.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#35)
by maderikapapa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 12:32:21 AM PDT

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[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Dear Lawyer[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#7)
by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 07:26:06 AM PDT

An important distinction between engineering and law is that for engineers the laws never change but for lawyers the law is constantly in flux.

Engineers must find ways to take advantage of the laws of the universe to benefit themselves and mankind. Often this results in new ways of using old but unchanging laws.

Lawyers find ways to take advantage of the law of the land to benefit themselves and their clients. Often this process involves changing the very laws they are operating under.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#37)
by maderikapapa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 12:34:35 AM PDT

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[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Response to a Lawyer's View[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#10)
by srynas on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 11:23:59 AM PDT

Very good comments. I hope that you will continue to contribute. Personally, I would welcome more input pro or con from the legal community.

My understanding of the law is obviously skewed since I, as well as many other people, are frantically seeking a "foothold" to stop the egregiously unfair business practices of vendors when they unilaterally "dump" on us EULAs that have the preceived effect of eliminating consumer rights.

I hope you will continue to post.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



I agree[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#12)
by Garminski on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 03:25:33 PM PDT

I would also like to see the Lawyer continue to post on this site. Most peoples understanding of the law is fairly basic and we quite often confuse what is right with what is legal. This is easy to do when you are not in a given profession. How many of us have snickered while listining to someone outside the computer industry explain how they thought computers and computer companies worked? A professionals opinion would be very interesting to read when we are dealing with law related topics.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#40)
by maderikapapa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 12:35:07 AM PDT

出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

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Correct/incorrect[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#14)
by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 01:13:15 AM PDT

The legal analysis is interesting and to some extent correct. But one of the problems with leaving law to lawyers IS the very perception that everything is arguable and negotiable. To those who beleive that EULA's are not a valid contract - 50 years ago, and for most of western legal history you were correct - and the legal logic was impecable, and frankly should have been absolute. There are excellent reasons why EULA's do not meet the requirements of a valid contract. But as the lawyer indicated, the law is fluid. Political influence, legislators, and courts have taken what has been decided law for hundreds of years and made it into a political issue. The ideological arguments were interesting. What is also interesting is that the very parties arguing to alter settled law, are the those groups that 50 years ago would have argued the opposite.
Copyright issues are even more complex. The first major issue is that copyright holders do NOT own anything but the copyright itself. Every other right - whatever they may be belongs to the public as a whole. This is pretty much straight out of the constitution. The "legal" issue is that within the confines of the constitutions (as interpreted by the US Supreme court) congress has the right to define what rights a copyright holder has. The good news is that both the plain language of the constitution as well as the legislative history of the drafters make it extremely clear that copyrights and patents are at best a necescary evil, and exist solely for the benefit of the public - not the copyright holder. The bad news is the the current US Supreme court seems to have lost the ability to read, and is basically letting congress do whatever it pleases.
I would also point at that there are many competing views on how to interpret both the law and the constitution, and the "engineering/logical" argument, that the law means precisely what it clearly and logically says (presuming that the law is actually clear) is a valid method of legal construction - In that view the flexibility needed to adapt to different times and circumstances, is accomplished not by changing interpretations but by changing the law.
It is a fact that one can not take the law for granted - either that it means what it says, or that it means what it did yesterday or for the past 100 years. But despite that there is a very high presumption that the law does mean what it says and/or what it has for decades or centuries.
Finally law shares another quality with engineering and all other professions. The vast majority of its practitioners, are neither perfect nor geniuses, and yet we are expected imperfect people to build bridges, and decide important legal issues - often wrongly, and we still expect the bridges to stand and society to survive. The argument that the law does not work like logic is really a falicious expression of the valid argument that logic may be perfect, but engineers and lawyers are not.

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Things were different then,[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#15)
by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 01:45:25 AM PDT

While Lawyers are expected to argue the merits of their clints positions, they are also bound by past precident and even by the clear meaning of the law. Dispite the view that lawyers are mear mouthpieces for their clients, it is an ethics violation for a lawyer to argue a point he believes is meritless. Alot less than 50 years ago there was no legal doubt that you can not create a contract after a sale - atleast not without a real renogotiation. And while the case law to that effect was not about software, to all but the blind it is indistinguishable from cases involving EULA's. One of the reason there is damn little case law specific to EULA's is because until very recently the software inductry would not have dared bring an EULA case to court - as they were almost certain loser's. The law has not changed but politics has. The other major issue that has changed - is that despite the inarguable invalidity of most EULA's, the industry has built decades of history using them. One other issue of legal interpretation that was not mentioned was that extremely few courts are willing to rule in a way that substantially disrupts the status quo. So what we have today, is decades of use of EULA's that fail to meet ceturies old fundimental tests of contractual validity, but have become a long standing defacto norm. Judges are left with the distateful task of serving the dictates of the law - faced with the alot of rhetoric arguing serious societal disruption, or creating disengenuous distinctions where none exist.
tying to another of Ed's favorite issues I would actually point to the software industries efforts to use UCITA, the NCUSL, and UCC article 2B, and ... to codify the validity of EULA's as what prosecuting attorney's would call "consciousness of guilt". If a shrink wrap EULA is valid, then there is no need for any of the machinations with UCC etc. It is specifically because most EULA's are NOT valid contracts, that these efforts are needed. Most of these efforts did nto actually attempt to make an EULA into a valid contract, but were extremely dangerous attempts to construct a completely and binding legal instrument like a contract but without the steep legal requirements of a contract.

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Something to...[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#16)
by Anonymous User on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 11:59:15 AM PDT

Here's something to make you think a little more... While we are having a good discussion about licensing and EULA's, you should probably hop over to (http://www.infoworld.com/about/abt_cpy.html) and check out the EULA for this site - Infoworld!

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What to do about bad EULAs[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#17)
by Anonymous User on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 04:23:07 PM PDT

I believe it is true that the law doesn't say who is right and who is wrong, only judges do. Never mind the fact that lawyers drafted the laws agonizing over the exact wording, and lawyers wrote the EULAs, again with extreme care in the language. And lawyers will defend both sides of the arguments in court, if it gets that far. In the end, the judge decides who is right and who is wrong, and the lawyers keep all the money. The best advice is to keep your money. Avoid lawyers, and especially court. And avoid software companies if their EULA doesn't seem right to you. When you vote with your dollars, everyone listens.

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yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#36)
by maderikapapa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 12:34:25 AM PDT

出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

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Adding some more food for thought[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#18)
by Tertius on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 10:17:07 AM PDT

What if the buyer/lessee/licensee is a minor? The age of consent in contract law varies by state, but I'll pick Lousiana so the U.C.C. gets a curve ball. Can 10 year-old (a minor to reasonable person) child be held bound by the EULA he or she accepts? Regardless of interpretation any contract entered into by a minor child is still considered null and void, correct?

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copyright law, etc.[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#19)
by Anonymous User on Thu Jun 15, 2006 at 09:31:12 AM PDT

I, along with my wife, have been a "columnist" (blogger?) on the Web since 1995. I have actually been on the Net since December 1969, one month after it started as ARPANET. Back then, only "crazies" like Buckminster Fuller envisioned the monumental changes that this new medium would eventually engender. I am neither a lawyer nor an engineer, but a mathematician/pyschologist. So, I would like to add a different vision to this site on this question.

I have been arguing about this and similar topics since 1995 with Lawrence Lessig (a good guy who writes for Wired and IS a lawyer). At the time I said that the Internet would absolutely destroy copyright law and I haven't moved an iota from that position since. He is gradually moving toward my side, but his lawyerly mind won't allow him to make that last leap of faith, to give up on a lost cause.

My reasoning is very simple. Since the Web actually works ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY by copying everything you look at...not once but many, many times for every click, every download...ANY copyright law has to allow this...or die. I choose "die." But, I admit it will not die easily or quickly...just eventually. Protecting "intellectual property rights"...which didn't even exist prior to the printing press...will go the way of the dodo. Information wants to be and WILL be FREE!

In 1995, the event that triggered all this was my copying and displaying in one of my columns a Dilbert cartoon. When the company holding the copyright complained and threatened legal action, I simply changed the link to the cartoon from my site to theirs! It looked absolutely the same, and linking to it rather than "copying" it produced no noticeable difference...only a legal one...nor could it, since they are logically the same. Except for one thing. The cartoon syndicate could and did remove all their cartoons completely from the Web, defeating their original purpose in putting them on in the first place!

For a while.

Then they gave in to reality...and put them back. They did try some copy protection schemes, but so what? As long as something is on the Web, the only way to protect it is to password protect it or some other nuisance impediment, cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. Making it hard for users will ALWAYS ultimaty come to naught. Mark these words.

Note: China recently gave in and stopped trying to block porn sites (source: Wired). How long will it be until they give up on political sites as well?

Most recently my arguments with Lawrence have centered on encryption of CD's, which I also believe is doomed to failure. He disagrees, but in this case, I also know I am right. I was a spy for the NSA when I was a youth, so I oughta know...

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yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#38)
by maderikapapa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 12:34:40 AM PDT

出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

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Misunderstanding about contract law[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#20)
by Anonymous User on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 06:12:35 AM PDT

I also am a lawyer, and many of the comments I see here, including the article, seem to think that if a contract has restrictions that are narrower than rights provided by law (e.g., fair use rights), then the contract is bad.  Not so.  So long as the agreement is not one prohibited by law (e.g., a slavery agreement), one can negotiate away just about any right in a contract.  For example, many sections of the UCC just set up default rules, and if a contract between the parties assigns rights differently than the code, generally that's OK.  The key is whether the parties assent to the difference.  

Of course EULAs are a difficult challenge for this analysis.  The first anonymous lawyer's comments are an insightful look at the practicalities of how this generally works.  

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yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#41)
by maderikapapa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 01:03:47 AM PDT

出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

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Hmm[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#21)
by Catherine M on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 06:51:56 AM PDT

It was an interesting article to read since I think it's really difficult to understand what the laws really says about this.
Catherine, Freelancer currently working on the breast enlargement herb project.
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àيٍèىàَëيهٍèçى antimaulnetizm[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#33)
by Anonymous User on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 03:48:38 PM PDT

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hero[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#24)
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