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Reading Ticketmaster Terms on the Clock

By Ed Foster, Section The Gripelog
Posted on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 01:14:05 AM PDT

Companies with nasty sneakwrap terms would prefer of course that customers not read them. Ticketmaster -- which you may recall has one of the worst privacy policies around -- appears to have come up with a clever way of making sure they don't: make reading the Ticketmasters you-have-no-privacy privacy policy and other sneakwrap agreements a time trial for customers.

"I just had the wonderful experience of purchasing tickets through Ticketmaster," a reader wrote. "I won't get into my gripe about how they have a stranglehold on basically all the music/entertainment/sporting event ticket sales. I'm particularly annoyed by their order processing and privacy policies. Their online ordering system has time limits for each screen where you select tickets, shipping, and enter in your information ranging from one to three minutes. They say the point of these time limits is to ensure nobody holds up a particular ticket for too long, but they prevent you from fully reading and understanding the information presented to you."

But Ticketmaster's final billing page was the one that really set the reader off. "On the last screen where you enter your name, billing address, and credit card information, they give you three minutes to fill it out," the reader wrote. "And they put a note on the bottom saying that by clicking the submit button, you agree to their terms of use and ticket purchase policies ticket purchase policies. Ed, I don't know how anyone could even just read one of these documents in 3 minutes! It boggles my mind."

Just out of curiosity, I tried reading Ticketmaster's 4,200-word terms of use and 1800-word purchase policy documents to see how long it would take me. Just skimming over the words without much comprehension, it still took me almost ten minutes, and I've probably read more sneakwrap agreements than just about anybody except those who write them. If I'd actually been buying a ticket, I would have had to start over three or four times.

One thing I didn't miss in the terms of use - and neither did the reader - is that it also obliges to read that horrible Ticketmaster privacy policy. In its current rendition, the privacy policy over 3,800 words, and it's more confusing than ever. And, yes, it still has all that stuff about Ticketmaster sharing all your information with their event partners, and the event partners in turn being able to do whatever they want with it including selling it to others.

"It's an opt-out policy with no way to opt-out," marveled the reader. "Only by reading their privacy policy -- where they 'demonstrate our firm commitment to protecting information you submit' -- do you learn that you have to go to the My Account section of the site to change your preferences. On that page, they note that 'Regardless of your selections above, if you purchase a ticket, or if you complete a registration form in order to be able to purchase a ticket to an event or to receive a ticketAlert, then parties associated with that event or Alert may still be provided with your information and may still contact you.' What are we supposed to do? It's not like we can avoid Ticketmaster!"

Well, maybe you can avoid Ticketmaster, but what we can't avoid is the utter futility of trying to read vendors' sneakwrap terms when they don't really want you to. After all, Ticketmaster gives you three minutes to fill out a form and read almost 10,000 words of dense legalese, and that's supposed to mean you've entered a binding legal agreement. It's just one more example of how vendors believe they can write their own ticket when it comes to voiding the rights of customers.

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Reading Ticketmaster Terms on the Clock | 63 comments (63 topical) | Post A Comment

File a lawsuit?[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#1)
by Anonymous User on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 07:25:30 AM PDT

For those of us with disabilities that restrict our reading speed, would a Americans with Disabilities Act lawsuit make a difference?

[ Reply to This ]

Re: File a lawsuit?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#3)
by Anonymous User on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 07:54:16 AM PDT

It might very well make a difference. One which might lead to more scrutiny over TicketMaster's business policies.

In our case, our local arena is within 20 minutes of the house. I call ahead and purchase tickets direct from the box office. When I purchase tickets at a distant venue, whenever possible I exercise the "Will Call" option that lets me pick them up there and gets me out of Ticketmaster's handling fees. One venue sent me the tickets via e-mail in .PDF and I could print them out.

Ticketmaster gives people the shaft on both handling charges AND exorbitant shipping fees on top of an already expensive set of tickets. On occasion, I've decided to save my money rather than pay their extortion when I was on the fence as to whether an event was worth attending. Now that I know about their lack of privacy, this just serves to irk me even more.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]

Free PDF?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#9)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 10:56:07 AM PDT

That's impressive...I'm a season ticket holder for the Seattle Seahawks. One "benefit" that TicketBastard offers us is the ability to e-mail extra seats to friends. And all for a measly $3.91 per seat per game. To e-mail something that my friend will then have to print out at his own expense. Last time I checked it took about 3 seconds of my time and maybe 5 seconds of machine time to make a PDF on my relatively slow PC. Which means that TicketBastard's hourly rate is what, about $1,760?

[ Parent | Reply to This ]

yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#87)
by maderikapapa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 03:05:10 AM PDT

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[ Parent | Reply to This ]

yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#75)
by maderikapapa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 12:07:35 AM PDT

DOJ Anti Trust[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#22)
by Anonymous User on Wed Mar 22, 2006 at 12:32:12 PM PDT

Ticketmaster should be held to the fire on anti-trust legislation as well as ADA rules. I say go for it; file a suit under the ADA by way of the American /Civil Liberties Union.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]

I purchased tickets...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#31)
by Anonymous User on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 11:01:42 AM PDT

I purchased tickets from tickemaster once and they gave my information to their "partners." I ended up getting set up with some membership with a monthly fee that I had no idea what it was about. When I contacted Ticketmaster they stated by not UNclicking a box they already had selected I agreed to these terms and I got hung up on twice.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]

yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#77)
by maderikapapa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 12:07:44 AM PDT

9999[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#68)
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[ Parent | Reply to This ]

9999[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#69)
by Anonymous User on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:42:15 AM PDT

yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#86)
by maderikapapa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 02:10:02 AM PDT

How Readers Could Help Get Tmr Out of the Saddle[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#2)
by Anonymous User on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 07:50:19 AM PDT

Excellent column by Mr. Ed Foster! What we need to do about Ticketmaster(Tmr), IMHO, is to raise a public ruckus amd complain to the event sponsors, and at the same time, we need to begin to refuse to buy tickets via Tmr. So - Would InfoWorld (IW) and the author Mr. Foster please announce that they authorize readers to use this column verbatim to publicize and expose Tmr's practices? If one could take this text, by copying-and-pasting this column into email or hard-copy letters addressed and sent to the Editorial Page editors at our newspapers - or if InfoWorld has the ability to distribute this col., e.g., for the Op-Ed pages across the land, so that the local leaders of local events would be likely to hear of it and read it - a powerful force against Tmr's monopoly might be generated. (I suggest all such users ought to be REQUIRED not only to include the text for easy fast reading by busy executives, but also include without fail the related URL, so that the fidelity of the text could be verified for action). But to ask a busy exec to click on the related link prior to reading - well, probably not going to happen, for his/her security and other reasons! It would be public-spirited of IW to relinquish the advertising $$ value of some of those potential hits, to achieve this public good. How about it, InfoWorld?

[ Reply to This ]

Get Eliot Spitzer after them![ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#10)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 11:02:31 AM PDT

Get NYS Attorney General Eliot Spitzer after them! http://www.oag.state.ny.us/

[ Parent | Reply to This ]

And that's to say nothing...[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#4)
by trashpicker on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 07:55:52 AM PDT

...of Ticketmaster's obscenely high hidden charges and fees, layers of which seemed to be added every day. I now avoid Ticketmaster events like the plague, preferring to spend my money on smaller events where I can buy tix directly from the venue or artist or from smaller outfits like TicketWeb.

[ Reply to This ]

Band Direct Sales[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#12)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 11:46:40 AM PDT

Most bands with a significant tour schedule these days will do direct sales of tickets to their shows, just like the Grateful Dead did for many years. It's a great way to avoid dealing with TicketBastard. It's not always free to do this. The Dave Matthews Band asks you to join their "Warehouse", which is $35 a year. Still, the money is going to the artist, not some 3rd-party selling that doesn't contribute anything. BTW - The privacy agreement on DMB's "Warehouse" membership is nearly as bad as Ticketbastard's (it's actually the "MusicToday" agreement), but they do have an opt-out link.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]

yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#80)
by maderikapapa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 12:08:41 AM PDT

Consumer Power[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#5)
by wpmills on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 04:25:37 PM PDT

Boycott. Don't Buy! Save your money. When noone can sell anything, then they will think about it!

[ Reply to This ]

yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#76)
by maderikapapa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 12:07:39 AM PDT

Ticketmaster charges[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#6)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 06:39:46 AM PDT

I'm with the folks who said they avoid Ticketmaster events. The charges got so outrageous, combined with the high price of most concerts, that convinced me that it's not worth it to even attempt to go. I think the last time I attended something where the tickets were handled by TMR was in the late 1990's. I do still buy music on cd's (what an antiquated idea!)

[ Reply to This ]

In fairness[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#7)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 10:47:39 AM PDT

In fairness to Ticketmaster (and let me point out right off the bat that I'm not affiliated in any way with them, except as an employee of a competitor), the original comment dealt with being presented with the T's & C's at the point of purchase. The contributor felt that it was onerous of TM to present those conditions prior to completing a transaction, and not allowing enough time to read and understand them.

TM's policies are presented (via a link) at the time that a user creates an account (without which, a user cannot purchase tickets). Additionally, at the bottom of TM's home page, the links to the Privacy Policy and Terms of Use are prominently featured.

It seems that some users feel that they can skip past these as "just a formality" that they need not review nor participate in -- and then gripe when they're reminded that they agreed (IN THE FIRST PLACE) to those policies, as a condition for use of the site.

There is no "three-minute timer" running forcing a user to accept the T's & C's, in order to purchase tickets. The thoughtful user should read those and decide whether or not to agree to them BEFORE using the site.

Now, as to whether those terms are FAIR, or whether TM should better control its agreements with event promoters with respect to how customer information is handled, I would tend to side with the majority of other readers here. It DOES seem fairly difficult to completely "opt out" from being spammed to death, or to have private information kept private.

But that wasn't the point of the original gripe...

;)

[ Reply to This ]

More in fairness[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#13)
by dmittleman on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 11:47:45 AM PDT

Leave it to a competitor to provide the most reasoned response.

I was a Ticketmaster employee for four years a long time ago, so my sense of the issues and feelings toward TM are biased (mostly positively) by that experience.

Regarding the short time permitted to read the license agreement: if, as the poster above suggests, ticket buyers have previously been presented with the agreement before their tickets were in queue, then a lawsuit is not likely to go very far.

Regarding ticket pricing:

Personally, I don't buy sports/concert tickets today. I think they are too expensive, so I just don't go. I don't quite get it that people gripe this is somehow unfair; it is a free market: if you like the price, buy the product; if you don't like the price, don't buy the product.

You can't really differentiate the TM service/handling charges from the event charges. If you could somehow get TM to lower their price, the event charge would go up - you are pushing a balloon here. The price is set by the open market. All that is happening with the service charge is that you are seeing a slice of where your concert/sports fee is going.

Here is my personal theory about TM's pricing strategy (I have no inside information; though I did personally know the thought process of the people who originally came up with the business model): TM prices its service charge as high as possible UP TO the point where people en masse will stop using the service. It is at this point TM makes maximum profit. How do they know if the service charge is too high? People don't buy tickets at the expected rate. How do they know they are just below the precipice? People scream bloody murder, but buy the tickets anyway.

So, if you are screaming bloody murder (as people are doing in this discussion), the service charge is priced right. If you are not, then there is wiggle room to raise it.

Not real pleasent, but it is pure micro-econ.

All this is my personal humble opinion.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]

And still more. :)[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#14)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 01:07:18 PM PDT

TM's pricing strategy is a sound one, even if it's irritating to [nearly] everyone wishing to purchase tickets. All you have to do to validate THAT is look at the price of a gallon of gasoline, or a cup of coffee from your favorite espresso dealer. The price on all three of those commodities is probably just below the point at which people will find less expensive alternatives for entertainment or transportation, or just settling for a decent cup of coffee from the coffemaker at home.

<soapbox>
Also, for what it's worth, some companies engaged in this line of business call it a "convenience fee" (rather than a "service charge") -- for that's exactly what it is. If you want the convenience, there's a tradeoff (in those micro-econ terms, it's "opportunity cost"). The cost of having the opportunity to stay in bed until the last possible second, versus getting out of my pajamas and driving to an outlet or venue to purchase those coveted front-row tickets, is the add-on to the ticket price.

No matter what you call it, though, SOMEBODY has to pay for the infrastructure investment in all the servers, bandwidth and brainwidth that make it possible to conduct eCommerce in the first place -- and it won't be TM's investors. After all, THEY want to make a profit, too...

'nuff said, I s'pose.
</soapbox>

[ Parent | Reply to This ]

Re: More in fairness[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#17)
by jr3806 on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 02:07:51 PM PDT

I must quibble with your ideas on pricing. The events for which TM sells tickets are getting more expensive all the time. But fans rarely get the chance to see a favorite band live or to get to see their favorite teams play, so they are forced to pay the going rate.

Then on top of that, TM tacks on fees out the wazoo. They probably figure that a certain percentage of the base ticket price is tolerable, so those fees go up all the time as well. TM also has a way of hiding those fees to spring on the buyer at the last minute after the buyer has jumped through hoops just to get the seat s/he wants.

So the ticket buyers have little choice. They can either pay the ticket price plus TM's vig, or they can stay home. Personally, I have done all I can to avoid TM for many years.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]

More on TM Pricing[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#18)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 02:34:18 PM PDT

In the free market of the USA, most of us have been brought up with the maxim 'Free markets bring the lowest possible price'. My college econ prof pointed out that this is totally wrong. In a free market, the price rises to the highest price the seller can get away with before the market refuses to purchase. People need to realize that TM or gas or anything is priced where it will sell. Don't like the price of that NBA game - the local high school game is a couple bucks. Don't like the price of gas - get a hybrid and modify it to get 200 MPG (better if you can).

[ Parent | Reply to This ]

More on TM Pricing[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#32)
by Anonymous User on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 06:44:48 PM PDT

Your comment is only true in a monopoly condition. In a free market, COMPETITION is what drives the price down. The problem here is it's not a free or frictionless market. The barrier to entry is very high: You would have to already be a very large company to get the event producers' business to sell their tickets. It's pretty much the same condition we see in local cable TV and energy distribution markets, or for that matter, in concert & sport ticket prices. I'm glad they can fill arenas at $100+ a head - but you sure won't find me there!

[ Parent | Reply to This ]

yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#83)
by maderikapapa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 12:09:01 AM PDT

It's still unfair[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#38)
by kamnet on Wed Apr 05, 2006 at 12:52:56 AM PDT

<i>"Regarding the short time permitted to read the license agreement: if, as the poster above suggests, ticket buyers have previously been presented with the agreement before their tickets were in queue, then a lawsuit is not likely to go very far."</i>

I haven't read their policies, but if it is similar to most other policies that I have read, it probably states that the terms of the agreement may be changed at any time by TicketMaster, without any prior notification (and this is a fair, binding and legal contract? heh).

Which means that the terms may have changed between the time you signed up for your account and the time you started to purchase your tickets. Further, if the terms have changed, how are you actually supposed to be aware of it and can determine what changes have been made if the prior agreements are not posted?

[ Parent | Reply to This ]

Monopolies are fun[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#41)
by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 05, 2006 at 06:39:57 PM PDT

And the reason they can get away with this pricing is because they have a near-monopoly, albeit on a nonessential product.

In a truly competitive marketplace, the price would hover just above cost, rather than being enormously inflated beyond that.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]

yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#82)
by maderikapapa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 12:08:58 AM PDT

ticket master service reps[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#61)
by Anonymous User on Sat May 10, 2008 at 10:13:02 AM PDT

I couldn't be happier with the service I received from ticket master. I had a problem with my ticket order and with a little time and patience from both me and the service reps, especially (gerri-ZWS815) we were able to come up with a solution. THANKS, AGAIN! TButler

[ Parent | Reply to This ]

Isn't it nice...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#21)
by Anonymous User on Wed Mar 22, 2006 at 07:42:44 AM PDT

...what the world has come to?

The speed of the Internet bogged down to a crawl because you have to read a contract for nearly every web page, purchase, or whatever you might happen to click on. And you have to understand it as well, before proceeding.

Here's a great big raspberry to any Ticketmaster apologist posting here that thinks I or anyone else really needs to go through this hassle. I certainly don't benefit from it. I have to take ten minutes to read a contract presented to me four lines at a time on a tiny window that I have to endlessly scroll down to read completely. I have to understand all the garbage that they're cramming in that document. Then... I'm paying extra for this service. The only party benefitting from this is Ticketmaster in that they are able to sell my information to other vendors so that I can have my email account filled up with junk mail. I suppose by agreeing to Ticketmaster's privacy policy I'm implicitly agreeing to all their partner's privacy policies. Do I need to read all those documents as well?

Let's summarize... In order to do business with Ticketmaster: I'm paying additional charges to do business with Ticketmaster. I'm taking additional time to read through all the crud in their EULA. Rereading it, probably, in order to understand it so that I can be fully informed before clicking on "I Accept". Long after the last echoes of the concert have died out, I'll be cleaning spam from Ticketmaster's affiliates from my Inbox. I'm jumping through all these hoops on my own dime, to boot. I honestly don't see the upside of doing business with them.

On the other hand, I can go down to a local club, pay the guy at the door $15, and the entire transaction is finished. And I have just as good a time -- if not a better time -- than I would have if I'd gone to some arena and paid Ticketmaster's extortionate prices.

Gee, tough choice.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]

In fairness[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#23)
by Anonymous User on Wed Mar 22, 2006 at 12:33:50 PM PDT

Just let me add that about two years ago I did indeed read the user agreement upfront before making any attempt to purchase tickets. After deciding that I did not agree, I clicked the "Do Not Agree" button and canceled the transaction. Nevertheless Ticketmaster kept my personal information and they and their cronies have been spamming me ever since. I have found alternative means of purchasing tickets since then and I will pass on an event before I will buy tickets to it through Ticketmaster.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]

yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#79)
by maderikapapa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 12:08:37 AM PDT