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Hughes Keeps on Billing

By Ed Foster, Section The Gripelog
Posted on Fri Mar 10, 2006 at 09:07:44 AM PDT

With all the AOL gripes we've had about hard-to-cancel service, I thought I'd heard every conceivable excuse an ISP could come up with for keeping an account going after the customer thinks it's closed. But another much criticized ISP, Hughes Networks' DirecWay satellite service, came up with a new one: a mystery "child" account that was born when the master account was cancelled.


A reader who had a DirecWay account for a number of years decided to cancel the service. "In early October, I called Hughes to cancel my account," the reader wrote. "After over two hours on the phone and being hung up on once, the rep told me she finally found my account and cancelled it. Feeling uneasy about the experience, I also cancelled the credit card that Hughes Network Systems was automatically billing. I stopped using the service, disconnected the modem, and uninstalled the software."

In February, however, the reader received a letter from Hughes Networks. "They said I had a past-due balance of $139.32," the reader wrote. "I called Hughes and was told that I had a master account and a 'child' account. The master account was closed in October when I called, but the child account remained active. I told him I only had one account, one service on one PC, and was only being billed for one account. He could see the record that I had cancelled on October 6, 2005. I told him I had not used the service since that date."

Although it was obviously Hughes' mistake, the customer service rep refused to correct it. "He could see that this was Hughes' error," the reader wrote. "Nonetheless, he told me I owed the money. He told me if I wanted to dispute it, I had to write a letter stating all the facts and fax it to corporate, which I did. I waited and heard nothing. Fearing collection charges and damage to my credit, I decided to pay it just to get clear of this company."

Hughes didn't make it easy even when the reader decided to pay the mistaken charges. "I called and spent another hour on the phone," the reader wrote. "I again verified that all my accounts were cancelled, then attempted to pay by credit card. They even had trouble taking my money at this point! The rep told me the computer kept saying the amount he was trying to collect exceeded the balance on the account. I feel Hughes stole my money for services they did not render. They knew it was a billing error but refused to put it right. This company is unethical, has horrible information systems, horrible customer service, and I will never, EVER, deal with Hughes again."

< Dead Pixels Tell No Tales | Getting New Drivers Isn't a Canon of Faith >


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Hughes Keeps on Billing | 38 comments (38 topical) | Post A Comment
You lost my sympathy at...[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#1)
by Anonymous User on Fri Mar 10, 2006 at 01:52:19 PM PDT

"Fearing collection charges and damage to my credit, I decided to pay it just to get clear of this company."

I'm sorry, but the reader lost my vote at this point when he decided to roll over and concede to Hughes.

We're not talking chump change here! At least try to get it resolved, contact your state Attorney General, the BBB, etc., if not for yourself then for others who may be scammed in the future by this company.

[ Reply to This ]



I agree...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#3)
by Anonymous User on Sat Mar 11, 2006 at 08:56:33 AM PDT

Once he got the letter from Hughes he should have contacted the BBB, the AG, etc., not offered to pay the fraudulent balance.

Companies who do business like this can, and have, been sued--especially when they put the negative rating on someone's credit history.  Once that happens, these companies also expose the credit reporting agency (CRA) to liability.  There have been multi-million $$$ lawsuits against CRAs for failure to remove blatant errors which cost the consumer big-time in some way (i.e. higher mortgage rate, etc.)

Did this customer also consider the possibility of paying on a credit card, then disputing the full amount?

Either he rolled over and played dead or we're missing some important piece of the puzzle in this article.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Could someone please explain...[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#2)
by Anonymous User on Fri Mar 10, 2006 at 06:18:23 PM PDT

... what this means: "Fearing collection charges and damage to my credit..."?

I don't live in the US and I can't even guess what "damage to one's credit" means. If they have no claim for your money *and* can't reach into your pocket to take it, what harm can they do?

[ Reply to This ]



What harm they can do[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#4)
by LasVegan on Sat Mar 11, 2006 at 12:21:10 PM PDT

They can report your non-payment to a credit bureau. This will likely come back to haunt you when you try to borrow in the future.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


It won't hurt your credit[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#15)
by Reziac on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 12:04:43 PM PDT

*Disputed* charges cannot be dinged against your credit rating anyway. IIRC that's federal law.

Also, even if they eventually send such a fraudulent bill to a collection agency, if you continue to dispute it (and particularly if you have any sort of records to back you up), chances are it will be dropped as uncollectable, and it will NOT show up against your credit. (Been there, done that.)

.

~REZ~
[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Debtors[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#9)
by Anonymous User on Mon Mar 13, 2006 at 06:04:39 AM PDT

We in the U.S. are a debtor country. Income level is irrelevant - most people manage to spend somewhat more than they can afford. In order to keep the loans flowing at top efficiency, whether bank loans or credit cards or whatever, you really want to avoid any bad marks on your credit report.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


A fool and his money ...[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#5)
by Anonymous User on Sun Mar 12, 2006 at 08:00:18 AM PDT

Paying money that you don't owe to make someone go away is illogical - all it does is encourage them not to go away.

[ Reply to This ]


"Thug Envy" ?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#6)
by Anonymous User on Sun Mar 12, 2006 at 09:31:34 AM PDT

"Do what we want (usually means "give us your money") or we'll hurt you."

Schoolyard bullies, organized crime, and governments have been doing this more or less forever. Some companies, or at least some individuals within them, apparently envious of this, adopt a similar viewpoint. Permission? We don't need your steenkin' permission! Pay up or we'll hurt you!

Enduring a smaller pain to avoid a larger one is certainly not illogical; if the person in this case believes the aggravation of taking legal action, time involved, etc. is more trouble (in his terms) than paying the damned bill, he pays it.

The illogical part is the attitude shown by the company, but which is so thorughly embedded in our culture that it's not going away anytime soon. I don't see Ed running out of topics to write about, unfortunately.

All that said, I hope he takes them to court and kicks their butt!

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


It is illogical[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#8)
by Anonymous User on Mon Mar 13, 2006 at 06:00:09 AM PDT

He cancelled his account and they still charged him for a "child account" whatever that is. If he pays them now don't you think there is a strong possibility that they'll create another "child account" and charge him more a couple of months from now? The best predictor of someones future actions is their past actions and this companies past actions show that they are happy to charge for services not rendered. As for the bully analogy - it is right on. If you fight the bully a couple times (win or lose) - he probably won't bother you anymore because you're not worth the effort. If you pay him today, you are going to pay him tomorrow, and the next day and the rest of your life.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Exactly...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#18)
by Reziac on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 12:11:05 PM PDT

"Once you pay the danegeld, you never get rid of the Dane." -- 10th century British proverb

As I point out above, *disputed* charges cannot be laid against your credit rating anyway. And collection agencies generally will not pursue such accounts, especially for trivial amounts.

.
~REZ~
[ Parent | Reply to This ]



The Danegeld[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#23)
by Anonymous User on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 07:17:00 AM PDT

Kipling, actually: http://whitewolf.newcastle.edu.au/words/authors/K/KiplingRudyard/verse/english_history/danegeld.html

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Paying while not responsible[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#27)
by BlackbirdCS on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 11:29:28 AM PDT

S'funny but people and corporations do it all the time; Settle out of court, with a lock on disclosure. Agree to stop a practise and pay damages without admitting guilt. Its all about intimidation, those who can will. Those who can't get honest. And those who cannot be intimidated are frequently left alone.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


IPSs do seem to have a reputation[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#7)
by Anonymous User on Mon Mar 13, 2006 at 05:00:02 AM PDT

I also had a problem with Tiscalli in the UK with trying to cancel their Dial-up service when I got Broadband installed. When I tried to cancel, they insisted that they had to have the order number they sent in a letter two years previously when the account was setup. The fact that I had a customer number, bank account details, customer details, dialup password etc was apparently no good. It HAD to be that order number or they were "very sorry, but there was nothing they could do". This was not just the one operator's 'misunderstanding' as I rang back and got the same story from another operator. I also asked for my order number in order to cancel the service, but even with all my account and service information, they could not tell me what my order number was. I did consider just canceling the payment to them, but got advised that course of action could lead to further problems with the company with debt chasing, bad credit references etc. I finally got my service cancelled by ringing up and pretending that my accountant needed the order number to tie up some tax records They got me my order number instantly, and I proceeded to cancel the service. So we have a company who's one piece of information needed to cancel is supposedly not tied in to any other piece of customer information, who cannot find that information if it is needed to cancel the account, but can then somehow find it instantly if it is needed `not' to cancel the account. Looking at the evidence, someone with a more cynical view of business would conclude that their system was set up to deliberately put obstacles in the way of loosing a customer. You think?

[ Reply to This ]


Geez...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#29)
by risinglucifer on Fri Mar 24, 2006 at 10:00:08 PM PDT

Looks like you guys are having it rough with your ISP. But judging from the post, it seems the customer whined to the wrong person...meaning a person without power and thus got screwed. But hey, at least it made to the news.
Live Life Now
[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Consequences Of Not paying[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#10)
by Anonymous User on Mon Mar 13, 2006 at 06:15:12 AM PDT

I was billed for something that I shouldn't have been (I don't remember now exactly what it was, but I never ordered or received it) so I called the company who sent me the bill to complain and the company refused to see things my way. I told them I would never pay them under any circumstances, they threatened me with a collection agency, I told them the same thing again. I got a call from a collection agency some time after that and I told them my story and told them I'd never pay them either. That was the last I heard about it (probably 15 years now) and it did not affect my credit. Does anyone know if this is the norm for things like this? If you just flat out refuse and they know you are right do they just give up? Or was I just lucky?

[ Reply to This ]


Ask for Proof of the Obligation[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#11)
by srynas on Mon Mar 13, 2006 at 11:04:25 AM PDT

It appears that you may have done the right thing, what you left out though is the basis for why a company should see it your way, especially with a collection agency.

When presented with a "fake" bill, you need to demand that the vendor send you proof of your supposed obligation, such as a signed contract.  Collection agencies should also have copies of the required proof.  However, with collection agencies, by the time a collection agency gets your "account", you may be close to the statute of limitiations. That means they won't try to hard unless its a large amoung to money. Once the statute of limitations kicks in you are under no obligation to pay, but the collection agency can still send those friendly reminders. (there is a way to stop them, but I don't have the specifics.)

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



I've done this[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#12)
by Fushigi on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 05:51:24 AM PDT

Some years ago, back in the pre-historic "dial-up" days, I used a second phone line for my modem. It was a basic line with no extra services. Later I disconnected the lines when I moved. AT&T, who had been my long distance carrier on the primary line, billed me for some supposed service on the second line. Funny how I was never billed for anything the entire time the line was active.

I ignored it and AT&T eventually sent it to a collection agency. When the agency mailed me a bill I fired back a letter saying that I did not sign up for any services and as such refused to pay. I then capitulated and said that if they could provide me a copy of any documentation with my signature showing that I agreed to the service, I'd pay. I never heard from them again and there aren't any marks on my credit report.

That move put AT&T on my list of banned companies. Now that they're joining with SBC I've ditched SBC for VOIP, which is proving to have better service for about half the price.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



I like your response to them.[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#13)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 09:42:17 AM PDT

Sure I'll pay - just prove to me that I actually owe something.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#37)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 11:44:50 PM PDT

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[ Parent | Reply to This ]


That little phone call disclaimer[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#14)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 12:02:10 PM PDT

You know that little message that plays before you are connected? The one that says something like "For quality assurance purposes, this call may be recorded (or monitored)." I take it at face value to mean giving permission and go ahead and make my own recording of the conversation. That way you can send a copy to the company executive when you write him to dispute the charges.

[ Reply to This ]


Check your state laws[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#32)
by kamnet on Wed May 10, 2006 at 03:05:22 PM PDT

Most states are a "one party" recording state, which means that in order to record a conversation, one of the members of the conversation has to be aware that it is being recorded by another member of the party, and it must be clear. But some states are "two party" or "multi-party", which  means that ALL individuals participating in the conversation must be aware.

And when you are in one state and they are in another, then it's a gamble to guess which laws will prevail. It's probably best to assume multi-party prevails, but then again you have to know which state everybody is in first.

Just because a company says that they may record their calls doesn't mean that you can do the same because the operator on the other end is not informed about this. If you inform whoever you are talking to beforehand of this, that satisfies the law, but it could also get you hung up on if the other parties are not comfortable with it.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



I almost fell out of my chair ...[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#16)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 12:04:56 PM PDT

I couldn't believe it when I read "Fearing collection charges and damage to my credit, I decided to pay it just to get clear of this company." As long as that attitude/practice persists among consumers, companies like Hughes, AOL and others will continue to abuse customers with their unfair business practices. For these companies its just another profitable line on their sales report.

[ Reply to This ]


Fear of credit ratings[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#17)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 12:10:22 PM PDT

Why is it that people have such a fear of getting a "bad mark" on their credit report??? I think that companies that use such deceptive billing practices have hyped how you MUST have good credit, but yet real life shows that great credit is rarely needed, and even more so - those types of disputed bills rarely get to a credit reporting agency. If they do get to the credit reporting agency a challenge will almost always get it removed. Giving in to such practices just makes those guys to it more - because it pays for them to be dishonest.

[ Reply to This ]


I am looking to sell my home and buy another[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#24)
by Anonymous User on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 07:23:43 AM PDT

The difference in interest rates that investors are willing to offer you is real and based heavily on your credit rating. If your credit is perfect as opposed to just good that can mean literally tens of thousands of dollars in savings. If you don't believe me go apply for a loan and find out.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#36)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 11:44:45 PM PDT

出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Hughes Keeps On Billing[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#19)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 01:13:44 PM PDT

I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me that paying a bill is tantamount to admitting the debt. If you pay a bill "just to silence the collector," then you are accepting the bill as due. If you don't owe a bill (or dispute it), then legally you should not pay it.

[ Reply to This ]


credit reports[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#20)
by aoz on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 05:23:48 PM PDT

TAKE A HIT by letting them file against your credit. THEN file a FRAUD alert, as you suspect screwy information on your report. If such info exists, file a dispute report to provide your side of the story. Two can play this game (I've done it before). do NOT let these nuts rob you of your money. All it takes is the time to write letters (the phone is a waste). just my two cents Nick

[ Reply to This ]


Paying up[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#22)
by Anonymous User on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 07:16:26 AM PDT

I have a partner with a similarly aggravating dispute with T-Mobile. The phone was ordered from Amazon and, when it arrived, it was turned on overnight but never got a signal. It never worked and was returned. 3 months later, T-Mobile is demanding money for their "Service". They never provided a single connection but they don't see why that should prevent them from getting paid. My feeling is that the $90 they demand is small enough to just pay and stop dealing with the frustration and anger. Put it behind you. He feels he has a point to make and wants to send a registered letter and put up with all the garbage to defend his rights.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


It's surprising how many pay debts they don't owe.[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#21)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 14, 2006 at 05:43:11 PM PDT

Articles I've read in the past seem to indicate that a fair number of people will pay on debts they don't owe "just to get rid of them". There also seems to be fair number of companies that count on that very reaction.

Generally speaking, if one or two customer reps won't help you, then quit speaking to them. These low level people do nothing that their computer screen doesn't tell them to do. They have no thought process and no ability to actually help by using common sense and by doing what is right.

The first step is to immediately write a letter to the corporates demanding the account be cleared. Also advise them that the next letter you write will be to your Attorney General and the BBB. Give them 30 days to respond then follow through on your promise and write the AG, etc. That worked quite well for me many years ago when I was stupid enough to sign up with AOL for 3 months. Basically, my philosphy is to cause them more grief than they cause me. When they have to start dealing with the AG's office, they generally drop their concern for the hundred bucks their trying to steal from you.

Also, in regards to a black mark on your credit.... If you already have good credit, one little mark from a sleaze-bag company isn't going to make much difference. You just have to be sure you dispute it in writing. If you already have bad credit, one little mark isn't going to make much difference either.

[ Reply to This ]



BBB Useless[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#28)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 03:39:49 PM PDT

I've written to the BBB several times about bad merchants and they have never provided one bit of help. They typically take the side of the merchant who is a dues paying member of the BBB. The BBB is a worthless organization that is just a waste of time to use and any merchant that advertises being a BBB member has no more credibility than one who is not a member based on my experiences.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


BBB works once in a while[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#31)
by Anonymous User on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 05:07:32 PM PDT

I filed a complaint against a junk faxer with the BBB and they actually did provide me with a letter stating they wouldn't fax me again. I haven't caught them at it anyway.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#38)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 11:45:04 PM PDT

出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Why the child account occurred in the first place[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#25)
by EdGriebel on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 08:21:24 AM PDT

I'm suprised nobody has addressed the source of the child account yet. Many customer service reps can get a bonus if they can talk a customer out of cancelling a service they have called to cancel. This is called a "save" and a rep can earn a $10 or $20 bonus or more for making a save.

My suspicion is that the child account was created deliberately by the customer service rep the OP talked to. When the OP asked to cancel, the rep put the cancel of the main account through, but then created the child account to collect the save, the thining being that when the customer realizes what happens and goes to cancel it, the bonus will already be paid and won't be retroactively removed.

[ Reply to This ]



Is there a way to stop something like this.[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#26)
by Anonymous User on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 12:25:51 PM PDT

Obviously you could refuse to pay the bill after the fact, but it is there any way to find out about it when it happens or right after it happens? I'm guessing no, but it would be nice if there was.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


silent kiiler[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#33)
by Anonymous User on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:03:35 AM PDT

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yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#39)
by maderikapapa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 02:15:25 AM PDT

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ibelievedu[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#34)
by Anonymous User on Mon Jun 16, 2008 at 01:57:44 AM PDT

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kral[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#35)
by Anonymous User on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 11:00:36 AM PDT

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