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Sun Never Sets on Java Security Updates

By Ed Foster, Section The Gripelog
Posted on Mon Nov 06, 2006 at 01:13:17 AM PDT

When it comes to security, Sun tends to be subject to much less criticism than some other system software vendors we could mention. But one reader thinks that a little more scrutiny of Sun would be a good thing, particularly in terms of how it handles Java security updates.


The reader first wrote me in early July about his frustration with keeping up with Sun's oversized and numerous Java updates, and also with keeping the old updates from piling up. "Sun continues patching the JVM every few months, and gets in streaks where they patch every few weeks," the reader wrote. "Although I run the jusched.exe process on several PCs that supposedly monitors the Sun site for updates and takes up cycles and memory, I still had no idea that Java 1.5.0.7X came out several weeks ago, until I read it in an enthusiast's posting. Sure enough, there it was on the Sun Web site. So I installed it and as usual, 1.5.0.6X was still installed. I uninstalled it and sure enough, some folders for it (and 1.5.0.5X!) were still around ... From Sun's explanation, it would seem the Java architecture is so flawed that removing files and folders from older versions breaks stuff, since it can't rely on something like the Registry for versioning. So instead it leaves the old versions on the disk -- which, by the way, could allow the exploits the update is guarding against to be executed anyway. What kind of security is that?"

In September, the reader wrote again. "Just so you know, 1.5.0.7X was withdrawn, replaced with 1.5.0.6X for several weeks, then replaced with 1.5.0.8X, then that was in turn withdrawn and the Java site reverted -- ONCE AGAIN -- to 1.5.0.6X. Last time I checked, 1.5.0.8X was not available. Pitiful - doesn't Sun do any quality control before they release their bloatware to the world?"

Last week the reader wrote in again to say the beat still goes on, this time with the now-released Java Runtime Environment 1.5.0.9X. "If you go to the Java.com site that is what you will get," the reader wrote. "In the meantime, .update 6X was the last 'official release. According to some channels, update .8X was issued for Vista compatibility, so that the Aero UI was not disabled while the JVM was loaded. However, until the other day, if you visited the site with Vista RC 1 the Java version you were presented to download was Update 6. Since I last wrote, if you used the Java verification applet on the Java site, you were told: 'Congratulations! You Have the Latest Version of Java!' whether you had .6X, .7X, or .8X. Confused yet? And note that .9X also was patched immediately on release from b01 to b03 -- really nice regression testing, huh? And they are still continuing in the grand Sun tradition of not automatically removing the older version when the update is installed."

Why, the reader wonders, isn't Sun getting the same kind of heat over its less-than-secure security updates that Microsoft is? "Unlike Microsoft's security issues, Sun gets a free ride on security patches for Java. No flames, no editorial comment. I suspect that this is due to the concept that Java runs in a 'sandbox' so it can't harm a PC like an ActiveX component. I know I have been asked to give those permissions to a Java app, so I guess I miss the distinction. For me, Sun's cross -platform promises for Java have just turned into cross-platform insecurity."

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Sun Never Sets on Java Security Updates | 37 comments (37 topical) | Post A Comment
Not necessarily insecure...but a big PITA...[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#1)
by Anonymous User on Mon Nov 06, 2006 at 09:46:20 AM PDT

I think we should applaud Sun for keeping on top in terms of its updates, not chastise them.

On the other hand, their methods for delivering updates are shoddy and horrible. Much like the OP indicated, Java updates are kind of like reinstalling AOL (shudder): every prior version remains on your hard disk. The only solution is to uninstall prior versions, and install a new one from the ground up, which is ridiculous for enterprise usage (note: it also doesn't work very well in restricted-user environments either).

My current response to this has been to stick with Java 1.4.2.x, which has been stable longer and has far fewer updates. It handles most current Java code, and has not been EOL-ed yet by Sun. Of course, if all of us do that it hurts the spread of Java 1.5 development, but perhaps if enough people did that, it would send a clear message to Sun that they need to make changes.

Rarely does a software developer get security right the first time, there are just too many angles. I agree that Sun's tack on providing updates needs some work. Here's hoping Ed forwards this thread over to Sun.

[ Reply to This ]


yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#76)
by maderikapapa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 03:10:32 AM PDT

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[ Parent | Reply to This ]


rant[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#2)
by foxyshadis1 on Tue Nov 07, 2006 at 12:12:00 AM PDT

[rant]

Sun's updater isn't the most useless thing in the world - at least it works, once in a while - but it always comes defaulted to "nag me every five minutes" mode, even though its background download is useless: All it downloads is the 50k downloader! Which then manages to time out while downloading, half the time (this hasn't been much of a problem the last year or so, but before that it was a major pain). And given that if they had any change management procedures in place, they could easily update only modified classes (there aren't that many in each minor version and patch level; all they need to do is update a few files in rt.jar, or place them in the "lib/endorsed" folder), my respect for the Java maintainers of Sun is pretty close to nil.

[/rant]

It does sound like a security hole, and that kind of mismanaged releasing really puts a black eye on Sun. I hope they deal with this in the 1.6 era better, which is just about to make it to the final release.

[ Reply to This ]



Kudos for the objective comments.[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#3)
by Anonymous User on Tue Nov 07, 2006 at 11:59:44 AM PDT

No company should be off-limits when it comes to security, applying updates, and just running software. Unfortunately, it's a fine balancing act to get security right. If you're overly aggressive, you get complaints that nothing runs. If you're not aggressive enough, you get complaints about all the holes. There's also the business balance: Businesses (and users) get angry when there are too many or too few patches. Finally, except for the power users, no typical user is going to appreciate a message like, "AF3827.dll is about to be updated. Is that okay?" Of course, the library can be a shared library on any OS so this balancing act impacts all of us, regardless of platforms used.

[ Reply to This ]


Which version of Java are you running?[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#4)
by Anonymous User on Tue Nov 07, 2006 at 05:50:48 PM PDT

Anyone interested in learning the version of Java currently being used by their web browser(s) can use my web site: javatester.org. Michael Horowitz

[ Reply to This ]


Yes, this sucks.[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#5)
by Anonymous User on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 09:56:56 AM PDT

I watch Secunia and try to keep up on these updates.   I ran a Zenapp which uninstalled all previous versions of Java (PITA) and then installs  1.5.0 build 7.   Of course, this means all java apps have to download again since the cache is in the folder with the version number.   So IBM Host on Demand, at 20 MB, has to make it to all my users including remote users with 128Kb links.  

But then Host on demand doesn't work with build 7.  Ooops.   So backrev.   Now build 8 comes out and I test it with host on demand, and it works -- for me.   But not when the users get it.  Again, they had to re-download the 20MB HoD applet.   So once again, we backrev to a version with possible security issues.

One thing to note, as of build 7 they once again changed which installer they are using.  So this may be an issue with the new installer software.  You can verify this by checking out the different icon between build 6 and build 7/8.

Sun Java needs to use MSI to install on Windows.  It needs to be a true, simple MSI - not an MSI with an extra .EXE front ending it like Adobe does.   It needs to uninstall previous versions so we are not left vulnerable.  It needs to store the JAR cache in a folder %APPDATA%\Application Data\Sun\Java\Deployment\cache   keeping the cache as I uninstall the current version and install the newest version --- and not in places such as %programfiles%\Java\jre1.5.0_09\lib\ext\QTJava.zip      

My .02
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[ Reply to This ]



yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#66)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 11:08:44 PM PDT

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[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Not removing old versions is a feature, not a bug[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#7)
by WmHBlair on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 02:43:59 PM PDT

> And they are still continuing in the grand
> Sun tradition of not automatically removing
> the older version when the update is installed.

Well, yeah ... like, duh! If they were to do that, then things would break. Java applications get to choose which level of JRE they want (i.e., can) run with. I need several versions on most of my computers becuase I have Java applications that will not run on newer versions (which, unfortunately, change how things work ... usually for the better, but sometimes applications depend on bugs in old versions that Sun fixes in new versions). In addition, new features and facilities are added to Java, which adhere more closely to the (original) spec (this has been a problem with some of the XML parsers, for example), and some old applications simply break if not run with an older JRE.

So, instead of acting like this is a bad thing, you should instead be applauding Sun for delivering an upgrade/install facility that is far, far superior to almost any other Windows or Linux package out there! I can install old versions (in any directory I choose). I can install multiple instances of the same version. I can deinstall specific versions. I can upgrade, downgrade, replace, etc. In other words, the Sun Java installer allows me to do anything that I might ever need to do on a computer (with the JRE or JDK).

Normally, by default, most applications will select the most recent version of Java to use. If they can't run on it, then it is their responsibility to either install, select themselves (properly), or allow you to specify which version of the JRE to use. Intelligently designed, properly written Java applicaions do this. Improperly written ones do not. Direct your wrath for Java applications that demand that they be downloaded again when you update the JRE (or the JRE gets updated) to the application's vendor. This is not Sun's problem. The application can automagically take care of all of this for you, if that is what you want, and if the developer would take the time to do so (properly). It could continue to use the old JRE version, it could find the new version of itself that works (better) with the newer JRE just made available on your computer, or (best of all) simply tell you that its an older version running on a back-level JRE and you might want to think about checking the web site out for a newer version, or telling you that it will work on the newer version (if it knows this to be the case) and asking you if you want it to make it do so.

> It needs to uninstall previous versions so we
> are not left vulnerable

I know you think that. I know you think that is the right thing to do. But, if you understood how Java applictions actually work and interface with the JRE, you would realize how silly an idea that is. If I install an updated level of Java, I most certainly do not want it going around and uninstalling old versions of JREs that I might have a boatload of applications installed that depend on the old version(s), which I might not yet have tested for use with the latest JRE, let alone certified. If Sun were to change the JRE/JDK installer so that it worked the way you apparently want it to, I bet that the first place where I would hear complaints about such "stupid" behavior on the part of Sun would be GripeLine (because, by doing so, Sun would be breaking so many things on so many people's computers).

In most instances, users should not be "churning" their JREs as the first reader did. There is no need, in most instances, to "keep up to date" with the latest level of the JRE. If there is some need for an uplevel version of Java, go to the Sun web site and download it and install it. If anyone is truly using genuine Java applications that are sensitive to some vulnerability that has been discovered, then the application vendor should be taking care of that, or if you somehow have some way of learning about that, then you can manually take action yourself (as always). But most "security" fixes to Java affect a tiny percentage of users, computers, and applications, and in most instances, I suspect, having the computer automatically update the JRE to the latest version would not address the issue, because the vulnerable application would still be using the old JRE, anyway (and if not, then the vendor would have told you to upgrade the JRE and then you would already know that it worked with the updated JRE version, so it would nto be an issue).
In other words, I think most folks bring these problems on themselves by improper practices.

If all the Java applications that you run on your computer are insensitive to new versions and releases of the JRE, and will always work properly, then you might properly elect to have the Java software updated automatically on your computer. But, if not, then, almost by definition, that would not be a very smart thing to do, now, would it?

Folks should investigate how things are supposed to work, and why they need to work that way, learning at least a little about them, before jumping in and mindlessly condemning. This gripe does not meet your usual standards, Ed!

[ Reply to This ]


What about compatibility?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#8)
by Anonymous User on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 11:48:13 AM PDT

To the above poster: all Java apps are supposed to be forward-compatible. That is, any old Java app is supposed to run on a newer platform. Java has gone through all sorts of gyrations in order to preserve this (generics, for example, are very hobbled for this reason). So I should be able to only have the very latest JRE installed and nothing else, in order to run any Java app. If you're saying that I might also need older JREs, then I think you don't know how Java is supposed to work.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Response to response[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#9)
by WmHBlair on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 03:57:30 PM PDT

all Java apps are supposed to be forward-compatible

Correct. They are supposed to be. My point, which I obviously didn't use enough words to make clear, is that, in fact, they are NOT. Sorry to burst your bubble. I know lots of things are supposed to be one way or the other.

Microsoft's operating systems are supposed to be relatively free of vulnerabilities. Sadly, they are not.

In this case, you're saying that any old Java app is supposed to run on a newer [JRE] platform. And, I agree. They are supposed to. And, most do. But, some do not. So, whose fault is is when they do not? We have three choices: (1) Sun [the author of the JRE], (2) the JRE/JDK installer [which is what the original complaint posted by Ed accused of being the source of the problem, and (3) the Java application itself.

Well, sometimes the fault is in Java. Wow! Java has bugs! Oh my God! Call ComputerWorld! (Or, better yet, perhaps InfoWorld.) My response: Oh, well. Yes, Java, like every other computer program is not supposed to have bugs. How many programs fit that description? Virtually zilch. Get over it. Java has less than most.

But, most of the time the fault is in the Java application. That is, there is nothing that Sun (Java) could have done to have avoided the problem (except, perhaps, by continuing to include a bug, which they have sometimes done, by the way). The correct fix is usually to fix the Java application. And, Sun itself would have no way to know that by fixing some (genuine) bug in the JRE that they might cause one or more specific Java applications (or, indeed any Java applications), which (deliberately or inadvertently) depend upon the presence of that bug to operate correctly, to fail. How would they know? Would you want them NOT to fix any bugs simply because it might break some Java application out there that supidly and improperly depends upon it? I think not. And, I doubt that you would, either.

But I have never seen such a problem caused by the JRE installer. Yet it was the JRE installer that was being accused of causing the problems described by the original complaint.

Java has gone through all sorts of gyrations in order to preserve this (generics, for example, are very hobbled for this reason).

Yes, I know. And, mostly, they work. The problem is where developers of Java applications did things that they were not supposed to do, and, in effect, made them dependent upon certain specific JREs. There are bugs in the JRE, and sometimes the only way a developer can find, frequently in a short period of time without much help from Sun, to get around the problem is a hack, many of which unfortunately turn out to be dependent upon the bug, and hence the release.

So I should be able to only have the very latest JRE installed and nothing else, in order to run any Java app.

That's true. You should be able to do that ... in an ideal world. But, alas, we DO NOT live in an ideal world. Bugs exist. People (programmers) are imperfect. Things are not like they should be. While it is true that you should be able to do that, you are frequently not in fact able to do that.

That is simply what I was trying to say. This is the way it is, and it's not all Sun's fault. In fact, the large part of the problem is NOT Sun, or Java. The problem is that when such problems arise, developers (like all developers everywhere, including Microsoft) do whatever it takes to get the product out the door, and usually that results in some incompatibility that will result in pain for some in the future. It is just how it is. Sorry to burst your bubble. Reality bites sometimes.

If you're saying that I might also need older JREs, then I think you don't know how Java is supposed to work.

Trust me, I know how Java is supposed to work. What I am saying is that it (unfortunately) DOES NOT work that way. Not because of anything (necessarily ... although sometimes that is the case) that Sun or Java has done, but usually because of unfortunate choices made by Java software developers.

Expecting things to work how they are supposed to work is OK, but it's sometimes naive. I expect better from Microsoft, but they continue to disappoint. I know what, in fact, to expect from Microsoft, and behave accordingly. I know what to expect from Sun, Java, the JRE/JDK, and behave accordingly. I do not expect, realistically, all Java application developers to behave as we would all want them to. But, blaming Sun, and in particular the JRE installer for all of this (actually, user self-inflicted) mess was simply wrong and silly. Most of the problem is with the Java application developers. Of course, some of the problem is with Sun. But, the problem has nothing to do with the JRE installer, which was the point of the original complaint that Ed summarized. That is simple nonsense. The JRE installer is virtually the best installer of any Windows software that exists.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Hm[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#13)
by Anonymous User on Tue Nov 21, 2006 at 08:22:25 AM PDT

"Correct. They are supposed to be. My point, which I obviously didn't use enough words to make clear, is that, in fact, they are NOT."

Yep. I can attest to that. A Java app we have here, which was developed in-house, was affected by a recent update. It developed a number of new bugs, some subtle (UI behavior changes) and some not (a couple of crashes). The exact semantics of some of the library code seems to've changed.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#65)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 11:08:29 PM PDT

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[ Parent | Reply to This ]


pasing[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#58)
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  • [ Parent | Reply to This ]


    yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#70)
    by maderikapapa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 01:58:46 AM PDT

    出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

    [ Parent | Reply to This ]


    yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#67)
    by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 11:11:52 PM PDT

    出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

    [ Parent | Reply to This ]


    Registry[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#10)
    by Anonymous User on Sun Nov 12, 2006 at 12:01:34 PM PDT

    I am offended by the the statement "since it can't rely on something like the Registry for versioning" as being logical. The Windows registry is a dumb, uncontrolled device of Micro$oft and contrary to good program design. To suggest that somehow an application, utility or system cannot be well implemented without the registry is bias and unbased in fact.

    [ Reply to This ]


    Java[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#11)
    by Anonymous User on Tue Nov 14, 2006 at 08:41:05 AM PDT

    There's a "registry" inside Java installations, too -- it's platform independent that way. It may or may not actually use the Windows registry on Windows computers as its backend; I haven't researched that; but it's mentioned at http://www.linux-mag.com/downloads/2003-03/puzzlers/ close to the bottom (Solution 18 is the heading just above the relevant chunk). You import java.util.prefs.Preferences and use certain stuff from this package (any Java developer should know how to locate the documentation for the API from the name of the package to import) to set and retrieve persistent bits of data across sessions.

    [ Parent | Reply to This ]


    yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#75)
    by maderikapapa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 03:07:52 AM PDT

    出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

    [ Parent | Reply to This ]


    yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#63)
    by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:04:11 PM PDT

    出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

    [ Parent | Reply to This ]


    NEW LINK FOR YOUR WEBSITE AND FOR GOVERNMENT[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#26)
    by Anonymous User on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 03:52:00 AM PDT

    Good. Try to visit this site: http://www.promlink.org there are more tools available for your client.

    [ Reply to This ]


    Very helpful[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#53)
    by nice air force ones on Wed May 28, 2008 at 05:35:40 AM PDT

    Very helpful, thanks!! cool air force ones

    [ Reply to This ]


    yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#74)
    by maderikapapa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 03:06:16 AM PDT

    出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

    [ Parent | Reply to This ]


    Very helpful[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#54)
    by nice air force ones on Wed May 28, 2008 at 05:36:47 AM PDT

    Very helpful, thanks!! cool air force ones

    [ Reply to This ]


    yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#69)
    by maderikapapa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 01:58:41 AM PDT

    出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

    [ Parent | Reply to This ]


    lychee[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#55)
    by rickman on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:46:30 AM PDT

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