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Licensed Users or Licensed Machines?

By Ed Foster, Section The Gripelog
Posted on Tue Jan 24, 2006 at 12:41:39 AM PDT

An interesting idea has been floated in our on-going discussion about how users can lose their license to use software because of a hardware problem. Is the real problem confusion over whether software is licensed to the user or to the computer? And is it the customers, or the hardware and software vendors, who are confused about what a license should really mean?


The discussion was originally spurred by a story in which a user found neither Microsoft nor eMachines would reactivate her OEM license for Windows when she had to replace the motherboard, a situation that has struck many readers as outrageous. "Licensing the software to one particular machine is ridiculous," wrote one reader. "What they need to do is license the software to one individual for use on one PC at a time. This way, I am not pirating the software and, if I choose to upgrade my PC or purchase an entirely new one altogether, I'm still not in violation. This approach, I believe, is logical and accomplishes the advertised purpose of DRMs and EULAs. Of course, it will never be done because the software companies' real goal is to squeeze more money out of users, not protect their product."

Another reader agreed, but thought that licensing per system might be more related to piracy issues. "Probably the main reason they license per hardware instead of per user, is that it is technically easier," the reader wrote. "How do you really have any control over piracy when it is licensed per user? Especially without a phone home feature? So they license it per hardware and attempt to justify it, because that is a simpler solution for them. Sure, it makes their users unhappy, but they like the alternative even less."

But some readers still feel that once the computer buyer accepts a hardware/software bundle and all related EULAs, they can't argue about licensing restrictions. "Microsoft is not the heavy here, nor is the computer manufacturer," wrote one reader. "Microsoft sold the computer vendor a copy of XP at a discount, and the vendor sold the end user the computer and software as a package. The reason the end user purchased this package is price. Not clearly delineated is the EULA is that the computer and software are a bundle, and that when one part fails and the unit is not operational, then everything is toast. That is the risk the end user took in making the price/performance choice. Of course it is easier to blame everybody else when the computer fails, but the fact remains it is the end user's risk, not the OEM manufacturer or Microsoft."

Not surprisingly, many readers took issue with that idea. "That is equivalent to suggesting that if you buy a discount car and something breaks on it and you do not go to the OEM to buy the replacement part, you are then out of luck," wrote one reader. "Imagine a Ford engine artificially disabling itself if it found an aftermarket part in the electrical system, even when it was fully capable of working with that aftermarket part. 'Sorry, sir, but your car will only work if you buy your engine control module from us. We won't reactivate your engine if you buy aftermarket parts.' All of your arguments would seem to apply in that case, so what is different here? The answer? Nothing is different. There are just a lot of apologists for abusive kinds of 'intellectual property' that would be obviously ridiculous if applied to physical items."

A reader who is coming late to this discussion just wrote me with another interesting point. "By no means is this the most extreme use of software licensing to restrict hardware aftermarkets," the reader pointed out, referencing the fact that, as we've seen, Cisco and other manufacturers of high-end devices have often used their software licenses to restrict aftermarket sales of their hardware. "Can you blame the PC manufacturers for wanting to get in on the act? Cisco does it, Microsoft does it, why shouldn't they? Until there is an established notion of what a license means, and what rights it confers on whom, it's only to be expected that companies will attempt to use the uncertainty to their advantage."

So what does a license really mean? What rights should it give the customer and what rights the vendor? And should it stay with the individual user or with a particular machine? Post your comments below or write me at Foster@gripe2ed.com.

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Licensed Users or Licensed Machines? | 128 comments (128 topical) | Post A Comment
What does a license mean?[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#1)
by wantobe on Tue Jan 24, 2006 at 03:08:09 AM PDT

A license means exactly what the granter of the license says it means, and if you accept it at the point of sale, you can't later complain about it being a bad license.

Look, we've all seen bad EULAs that have mangled legalese and are impossible to understand, but in this day and time there is nothing at all "hidden" about the fact that when you buy a bundled system you are buying the system as a bundle. Microsoft's policy of licensing per machine is years old, and those of us in the tech industry have known about it all this time. The average consumer should be aware of it, but of course most of you will obsolve the consumer of any blame even though they predictably don't do any research before buying a product.

As one writer pointed out, the manufacturer can't be held accountable for reauthorizing the MS software because they bought, and sold, it on the condition that it belongs to that machine only. And MS sold the software under those conditions to the manufacturer, so they are perfectly in their right to stand by the conditions. If you don't like it, pay the non-discounted price for the retail version of the software, and you can then take it with you to different machines.

As for the writer who asked what would be different from this than if car manufacturers used the same argument, he's right; there is no significant difference. And if you bought a cheap car with the understanding that it would no longer work if you replaced a major part from a third-party supplier (I don't know enough about how cars are built to know what would be the equivalent of replaceing a motherboard on a computer, but I imagine it would be a bit more significant than chaning the oil or a lightbulb) then you can hardly blame anyone else when the situation comes up.

You don't have to like it, of course, and you can refuse to buy under those conditions. But quit whining about how unfair it is long after you accepted the terms of the agreement. There are times when bitching about a EULA is warranted, especially when the terms are hidden in small print buried deep within the document, but this is not the case this time. It's a well known practice, and there are alternatives if you don't like it.


Rob Miles
--
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't.
[ Reply to This ]



In other words...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#2)
by Anonymous User on Tue Jan 24, 2006 at 04:52:10 AM PDT

"Lay there and take it bee-otches!" Pathetic. You get no choice in the EULA, "My way or the Highway" is not a negotiated or valid license. If the software industry continues, they deserve every last act of "piracy" inflicted upon them. (I say make them walk the plank in shark infested waters)

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


A little more.[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#24)
by foxyshadis1 on Tue Jan 24, 2006 at 06:28:52 PM PDT

To clarify a bit, you get no choice because the only machines sold at retail are OEM licensed. The only way to get an unencumbered one is: find a local whitebox dealer, mail-order, or build one. Or waste the $50-100 extra the oem windows license cost and buy a retail box.

When you buy a car you're treated to a long contract listing your rights and responsibilities, and consequenses of failure to abide. When you buy a computer you swipe a card. When you get home and set it up, then you're suddenly presented with a rigidly encumbered and slightly misleading license written in legalese.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



I didn't say I liked it.[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#27)
by wantobe on Wed Jan 25, 2006 at 03:06:34 AM PDT

You can complain about the cumbersome EULAs all you like, and I'll agree with you that they are burdonsome, but my point remains that in THIS case, the bundled OS license is pretty well known. You can't complain that this is some surprise sprung on unsuspecting buyers.

You make a good point about the lack of options for the typical buyer when they buy a computer at Best Buy or Circuit City, but there are other options. The average consumer probably isn't aware of the difference, and would balk at the higher cost of a custom built system with retail versions of software instead of OEM, but you get what you pay for.

And consumers not doing the research to better understand what it is they are getting (or failing to get) is something I can't really sympathize with, considering one of the services my company offers is free consulting on computer purchases.


Rob Miles
--
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't.
[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Not at all "well known"[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#34)
by Anonymous User on Wed Jan 25, 2006 at 05:34:31 AM PDT

>but my point remains that in THIS case, the
>bundled OS license is pretty well known.

I would say that most people buying a computer doesn't have a clue really and have no knowledge of such things at all. You even admit this later on when you write that "The average consumer probably isn't aware of the difference," which I agree with completely.

>And consumers not doing the research to better
>understand what it is they are getting (or
>failing to get) is something I can't really
>sympathize with,

The main problem is that in many cases, the consumer has no idea what he needs to get infomration about to start with and have a hard time to get it and so on. That is of course why in many countries, consumer sales laws put the burden on the seller to informa of such things that are not evident, can be surprising and different from what one might expect and so on. It is also why many types of sales practises are not allowed by the law, not sure about these specific cases discussed here and don't think there have been cases either.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Hogwash![ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#41)
by wantobe on Wed Jan 25, 2006 at 07:06:29 AM PDT

Yes, I "admit" that the average consumer isn't aware of the difference, but that doesn't mean I don't think they are responsible for finding out. And really, it's as easy as asking someone you know who works on computers, or calling a local computer shop and just asking for advice. Not all of them will help you, but you'll eventually find someone who will. And the practise is well-known by anyone who has been involved in computer maintenance and repair, or even building, for more than a few months.


Rob Miles
--
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't.
[ Parent | Reply to This ]



I don't know...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#45)
by Jarulf on Wed Jan 25, 2006 at 08:23:16 AM PDT

I don't know how it is in the US but considering that in most countries when you buy something, you own it and there is no restrictions on its use, this case would be an EXCEPTION to what one can expect. In such a case it would be the responsability of the seller to inform of such a thing. A consumer is not supposed to haveing the duto on each and every purchase to go arround and make questions from "experts" to find out if there is some special case.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


EULA[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#59)
by Anonymous User on Thu Jan 26, 2006 at 12:35:34 PM PDT

I Agree. For people who are new to buying a computer, it's not reasonable to expect there would be such a long and ridiculous legal agreement attached to the purchase, AND that you can't even read said agreement until after you complete the purchase and set up the computer the first time. At least in the case of a computer system, you can usually return it for a refund if you don't agree with the EULA. (There are exceptions, like re-stock fees for some computers from some stores. Those stores deserve to have the re-stock fee charged back to them by the consumers credit card issuer.)

In the case of a computer system purchase, there should be enough room on the outside of the box to print a fairly large warning that this purchase requires accepting a "legal" agreeement, and to ask the store employee for a copy of said agreement if they wish to review it before purchase.  

Of course, they don't really want consumers being made aware of the agreements, then there could be some real backlash from consumers.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Post-Sale Agreement = Absurdity[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#74)
by Anonymous User on Mon Jan 30, 2006 at 01:01:56 PM PDT

I am not aware of any legal precedant establishing a license is legally enforcable unless it was somehow disclosed in a reasonable fashion before the actual sale. How can an agreement that it is hidden until after purchase be made AFTER THE FACT? Money was accepted without any agreement. Please alert me to relevant case laws, if applicable. -Chris

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


The retail market is the default place of purchase[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#53)
by ekuns on Wed Jan 25, 2006 at 08:39:09 PM PDT

ALL machines in the retail market come with Windows pre-installed. You simply cannot -- in the normal retail market -- find a PC without paying for an OEM Windows license. Thus, your argument that a careful user would pay more for the full non-OEM license is absurd. There is no venue in which to do so, in part because Microsoft licensing largely prevents it.

This means that you are always free to purchase the boxed non-OEM version of Windows ("for machines without Windows" -- which machines would those be?), but to do so you are paying for TWO copies of the same software.

Can you name a single retail computer vendor who will sell you a computer with a non-OEM license? Again, I'm talking retail. There are always custom shops who will do just about anything you want, but we're talking about the consumer retail market here.



[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Retail[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#54)
by Anonymous User on Thu Jan 26, 2006 at 06:04:03 AM PDT

the local computer stores that will build a computer to what you want, including OS version, are retail stores.

If you want to only shop at big box stores look at Micro Center (microcenter.com).  They do have computers listed without Windows OEM version.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



You're right, they now have 1 model with Linspire[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#66)
by ekuns on Fri Jan 27, 2006 at 12:38:33 PM PDT

So when I said 100%, I was a fraction of a percent off. My point still stands: Microsoft licensing agreements that the OEMs have discourage the OEMs from selling computers without Windows and discourage the OEMs from giving even a full Windows install CD. This is to Microsoft's advantage, because it means the consumer buys a new version of Windows with each computer.

Microsoft does not WANT consumers to buy the full price full version of Windows, because they will then transfer it to their newer computers. The whole argument of "since it is sold at a discount" is bogus. It's a red herring.

Also notice that the OEM price of Windows has gone up or stayed the same with every release. It has never dropped. Windows is the sole component of a computer whose cost has gone up steadily and continuously over 20 years. Monitors cost less for better resolution. Drives cost less for more space. Memory costs more for more space. Network cards cost less for faster networking speed.



[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Oh?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#60)
by LasVegan on Thu Jan 26, 2006 at 09:01:56 PM PDT

A few months back I bought a laptop sans OS.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Yes, but...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#67)
by ekuns on Fri Jan 27, 2006 at 12:40:19 PM PDT

Did you actually pay *less* for the laptop since it came without an OS or did you just pay the normal price someone pays to get it with Windows but not receive Windows? Was this a new laptop? Did you buy it retail?

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Paid less[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#70)
by LasVegan on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 11:40:02 AM PDT

The OS was an *OPTION* that I didn't choose to pay for as I was replacing an old laptop that had a non-OEM copy of XP on it from a prior upgrade. Since I had a valid license I didn't need a new one.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


So who was the vendor[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#81)
by ekuns on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 04:12:15 PM PDT

where you got your laptop?

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


The vendor[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#82)
by LasVegan on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 01:16:50 PM PDT

Sager

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Define "machine"[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#3)
by Fushigi on Tue Jan 24, 2006 at 05:37:41 AM PDT

What consititutes a PC? There are dozens of parts.

Which parts or how many parts have to be replaced, removed, or added before a PC is no longer considered to be the same?

In eMachine's/MicroSoft's license, what hardware is explicitly identified as being the hardware that the license is tied to?

Keep in mind that the Windows OEM license simply ties the license to some piece of hardware that was purchased at the same time. It may be a motherboard, but it could also be a power splitter cable, a power supply, or a case screw. The latter items are not detectable by the OS yet are still valid in terms of satisfying the OEM hardware requirement. If the license applies to the machine as a whole, then just replacing the mouse or using a differen power cable would invalidate the license. Yet I can do that all day long and Windows won't care at all.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



See the Refurbished Text Below[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#23)
by Anonymous User on Tue Jan 24, 2006 at 06:18:11 PM PDT

Actually, eMachines could have provided an identical motherboard so that the license was free and clear. But if you don't buy the motherboard from them, and want to "upgrade" the OEM motherboard by buying elsewhere: guess what, that's not their business model.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


OEM license[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#37)
by Anonymous User on Wed Jan 25, 2006 at 05:45:52 AM PDT

Actually the Microsoft OEM license does state that it can only be sold with one of the following: a complete system, a motherboard, a processor, or a hard disk drive. Unless, of course, that has changed since I stopped building PC's. I don't know the details of the situation, but it sounds more to me like this may have been a mistake in customer service?

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Hidden EULAs[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#4)
by Anonymous User on Tue Jan 24, 2006 at 07:54:42 AM PDT

The only problem with that rant is the license is not available for inspection until after you have agreed to it. Even if the user did read it, it was then too late. Of course, we all know the thing was written specifically to discourage the user from reading it.

It really does not matter what is standard, what is past practice. The customer's assumptions about getting the same machine back into proper working order is a warranty issue, not a licensing issue. MS has advertised they would do it, then refused. They lied. The fine print is no excuse when you present yourself as reasonable, but we've accepted that far too long. Real justice requires fine print be stricken from consideration. That's what we demand in normal discourse, and lawyers are rightly vilified for such sneaky meanness.

Of course, we know advertising is inherently false, a big expensive and noisy lie. Pitchmen hold consumers in comptemp; they just want the money. Who cares what people want and need? The civil law system was built and designed by crooks, looking for every possible means to rape the public.

Thank God for Open Source.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



And you called my posting a rant![ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#31)
by wantobe on Wed Jan 25, 2006 at 03:39:10 AM PDT

In business, it most certainly does matter what is standard and past practice.

The customer's machine was out out of warranty, and the motherboard was replaced by a third-party m/b. Had she bought the manufacturer's m/b, admittedly more expensive, she would have been able to reinstall the OS without problem. Her fault, or her tech support's, for not checking.

What did MS advertise they would do but then didn't? How did they lie?

People talking about "real justice only happens when" really scare me.

I really have no idea how to respond to the rest of this disjointed screed. If you had a coherent point, you failed to make it. Maybe you could clarify?


Rob Miles
--
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't.
[ Parent | Reply to This ]



But is it allowed?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#35)
by Jarulf on Wed Jan 25, 2006 at 05:40:16 AM PDT

>The customer's machine was out out of warranty,
>and the motherboard was replaced by a third-
>party m/b. Had she bought the manufacturer's
>m/b, admittedly more expensive, she would have
>been able to reinstall the OS without problem.
>Her fault, or her tech support's, for not
>checking.

Actually, such practise of forcing someone to only buy spare parts from you and not someone else can in many cases and in many countries not be allowed. The car industry tried it for a long time but today you can buy spare pparts that are not "original" and from the manufacturer and so on. I don't see much of a difference here and would claim that it is not at all her fault.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Sure it is[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#40)
by wantobe on Wed Jan 25, 2006 at 06:53:16 AM PDT

In this case, the customer was not barred from installing a 3rd-party motherboard. She was able to do that, and it appears that the computer itself is working just fine. However, as per the terms of the OEM license, she needs to purchase another license of the software in order to use it on this new machine.

I can't speak to whether or not it's actually legal, but this is one case where I certainly do not see anything morally wrong. It would be better if at the time of purchase the seller were required to expressly inform the customer of the software license restrictions involved with OEM, but most of my clients get the glassy-eyed look as soon as I start to explain it to them. They want the bottom dollar, and for the most part all they care about is paying the least amount of money. Being able to transfer the OS to another computer in the future is something they could care less about, and it's there own damned fault when it bites them in the ass later, as far as I'm concerned. (I just get mad when they tune me out as I'm trying to explain something important to them, and ignore my advice in order to save a few bucks.)

And I would love it if at the time of purchase the customer were giving the option of paying $50 more for the retail version, but again, most customers won't understand the difference (and won't put forth any effort to) and will opt for the cheaper version.


Rob Miles
--
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't.
[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Don't believe everything you read[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#62)
by Anonymous User on Fri Jan 27, 2006 at 06:26:01 AM PDT

Rob,

Companies lie all the time about IP rights. They lie all the time about what choices you have. They withhold information.

Purchasers sometimes take it and sometimes complain. Please recognize that I and many others simply don't believe that the OEM licensing restrictions are valid.

Courts have ruled both ways on this issue so there is certainly validity to the opinion that MicroSoft's OEM agreements are an illegal circumvention of the First Sale Doctrine that is enshrined in US Copyright Law and is every bit as valid as the exclusive monopoly rights granted copyright holders in that same law.

You can't legally enforce an agreement (even one entered into willingly by both parties) that conflicts with the law of the land.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Legal doesn't matter[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#86)
by Anonymous User on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 05:03:23 PM PDT

Legal or not, it worked. She could not install the software. MS is enforcing their license even if we all agree it sucks and is probably not legal. Until someone takes it to court and wins MS will continue to enforce. BTW - I went to HP's site was able to choose to buy with Windows or FreeDOS with about a $100 difference. If I wanted to put a non-OEM version of windows on the box after that, I am free to do so. In fact I usually buy my PCs without an OS and install the full version. If I bought the proverbial car in this story and Ford said that they would knock another $5000 off if I promise to replace with only Ford parts. Now I choose to break that agreement and put aftermarket parts in it and it stopped working, who is at fault? If I buy an OEM software package, I recieve value for agreeing that I will continue to spend money with the vendor. The consumer should be informed before the purchase of this deal, but if they choose to take the value offered and then break the agreement down the road, I can't blame the vendor or MS.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Wow, your post made no sense.[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#87)
by Anonymous User on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 07:55:38 AM PDT

I couldn't follow your post even though I read it twice.

Law is a funny thing. It gets created based upon a variety of inputs. Standard industry practice is one of the inputs; so unfortunately, the longer we put up with onerous behavior, the more likely we'll be stuck with it when new laws are passed or old laws are interpreted.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#93)
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[ Parent | Reply to This ]


yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#97)
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[ Parent | Reply to This ]


yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#101)
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[ Parent | Reply to This ]


yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#105)
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[ Parent | Reply to This ]


yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#109)
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[ Parent | Reply to This ]


yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#113)
by maderikapapa on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:13:32 PM PDT

無料エッチ動画エッチアダルトDVDエロ動画エロ動画熟女動画熟女無修正画像中出し動画中出し動画盗撮動画盗撮エロ無料アダルト動画無料アダルトエッチ無修正動画無料動画熟女無料動画アダルトビデオ無料動画中出しアダルト無料アダルト無修正動画無料アダルト動画アダルト無料アダルト動画セックスアダルト動画無料アダルト動画盗撮エロい画像で抜ける極上人妻エ 525;サイトをご紹介!人妻のおっぱいやおまんこ画像 418;無料で見れる!おっぱいおまんこの感触をリアル出会い系サイトで体験!逆援で儲かる出会い系人妻熟女達が童貞男性を刈るエロサイトなど 434;ご紹介

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yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#117)
by maderikapapa on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:37:25 AM PDT

童貞好きなエロい女性達のエロ画像をご紹介セックスしたいご近所でセックスフレンドと過ごせるセフレ系出会いサイトはココで間$ 949;いなしセックス画像なども満載セックスフレンドと逢えるならセフレ交際所で逆援助好きなエッチな奥さん逆援助でSEX体験ができる副業もココ& #12363;らスタート熟女のおまんこは人妻以上風俗でセフレを探すより出会い 995;で決まりアダルトな夜を探して人妻達が出会いを求めておりま 377;エッチな掲示板で素人ホストなども募集中エロい思いを満たせる人妻出会いサイト童貞の初心なしぐさ童貞の真面目さ童貞のエッチは激しいエロいおっぱいやおまんこ童貞さんと童貞を買ってあげる童貞のえっち体験告白や逆援助白書童貞童貞のためのおっぱいサイトセフレ希望の女子高生が出会いを求めて恋愛探し人妻セックス体験談はエッチBBSで書き込んでくださいアダルトSNSではSEX好きな友達や彼女を出会い感覚で楽しめるナンパテクニックなども公開中アダルトサイトで無料動画をゲット童貞には刺激の強いオナニー娘との出会いや熟女との濃厚な愛撫出会い探してみませんか不倫願望の強い巨乳マダム達とセックス講座スワッピングを楽しめる出会いSMマニア的な出会いをお届

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yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#121)
by maderikapapa on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 09:20:53 AM PDT

逆援北海道 不倫青森 不倫岩手 不倫宮城 不倫秋田 不倫山形 不倫福島 不倫東京 不倫群馬 不倫埼玉 不倫千葉 不倫茨木 不倫神奈川 不倫栃木 不倫山梨 不倫長野 不倫新潟 不倫岐阜 不倫静岡 不倫愛知 不倫三重 不倫富山 不倫石川 不倫福井 不倫滋賀 不倫京都 不倫大阪 不倫兵庫 不倫奈良 不倫和歌山 不倫鳥取 不倫島根 不倫岡山 不倫広島 不倫山口 不倫徳島 不倫香川 不倫愛媛 不倫高知 不倫福岡 不倫佐賀 不倫長崎 不倫熊本 不倫大分 不倫鹿児島 不倫宮崎 不倫沖縄 不倫

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yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#125)
by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 09:13:50 PM PDT

セレブ 北海道セレブ 青森セレブ 岩手セレブ 宮城セレブ 秋田セレブ 山形セレブ 福島セレブ 東京セレブ 群馬セレブ 埼玉セレブ 千葉セレブ 茨木セレブ 神奈川セレブ 栃木セレブ 山梨セレブ 長野セレブ 新潟セレブ 岐阜セレブ 静岡セレブ 愛知セレブ 三重セレブ 富山セレブ 石川セレブ 福井セレブ 滋賀セレブ 京都セレブ 大阪セレブ 兵庫セレブ 奈良セレブ 和歌山セレブ 鳥取セレブ 島根セレブ 岡山セレブ 広島セレブ 山口セレブ 徳島セレブ 香川セレブ 愛媛セレブ 高知セレブ 福岡セレブ 佐賀セレブ 長崎セレブ 熊本セレブ 大分セレブ 鹿児島セレブ 宮崎セレブ 沖縄アダルト出会い

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yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#129)
by Anonymous User on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:51:52 AM PDT

北海道 セフレ青森 セフレ岩手 セフレ宮城 セフレ秋田 セフレ山形 セフレ福島 セフレ東京 セフレ群馬 セフレ埼玉 セフレ千葉 セフレ茨木 セフレ神奈川 セフレ栃木 セフレ山梨 セフレ長野 セフレ新潟 セフレ岐阜 セフレ静岡 セフレ愛知 セフレ三重 セフレ富山 セフレ石川 セフレ福井 セフレ滋賀 セフレ京都 セフレ大阪 セフレ兵庫 セフレ奈良 セフレ和歌山 セフレ鳥取 セフレ島根 セフレ岡山 セフレ広島 セフレ山口 セフレ徳島 セフレ香川 セフレ愛媛 セフレ高知 セフレ福岡 セフレ佐賀 セフレ長崎 セフレ熊本 セフレ大分 セフレ鹿児島 セフレ宮崎 セフレ沖縄 セフレ

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yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#91)
by maderikapapa on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 08:22:54 PM PDT

SEXエロセックスセックスセフレセックスセックスセフレ逆援不倫熟女風俗アダルト人妻エッチ素人エロ人妻不倫童貞童貞童貞エロおまんこ童貞童貞おっぱいセフレ出会い人妻エッチアダルトSEX出会いナンパ