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Lexmark Wins the Right to Sue Its Customers

By Ed Foster, Section Columns
Posted on Thu Sep 08, 2005 at 08:46:38 AM PDT

If your business is considering a laser printer purchase anytime soon, I'd like to make sure you're aware of one fact. After a protracted legal struggle, Lexmark has succeeded in getting federal district court sanction to sue its customers if they violate the company's "boxwrap" license agreement. And, while Lexmark has at least hinted that suing customers is not its intention, you might not want to take the chance.


No sooner did I remark the other day how refreshing it was to see a court render a good decision for once then word came of two more recent federal court decisions that are just the opposite. The ruling to uphold Blizzard's EULA ban of reverse engineering is so depressing that I'm just not going to even talk about it right now. But the Ninth Circuit's decision in the ACRA vs. Lexmark case deserves our attention, if only because it's one in which it's clear what my readers can do about it.

The litigation is the result of yet another attempt by Lexmark to use patent, copyright, and contract law to lock its printer customers into using its consumables. (In case you're confused, this is a different Lexmark lawsuit than the one where the company tried to use the DMCA to block manufacture of compatible consumables.) ACRA, the Arizona Cartridge Remanufacturers Association, was asking the court to declare Lexmark's shrinkwrap-like "Prebate" license agreement on its laser printer toner cartridges unenforceable. On the outside of the cartridge package in bold type it says "Return Empty Cartridge to Lexmark for Remanufacturing and Recycling" followed by this license:

"Please read before opening. Opening of this package or using the patented cartridge inside confirms your acceptance of the following agreement. The patent cartridge is sold at a special price subject to a restriction that it may be used only once. Following this initial use, you agree to return the empty cartridge only to Lexmark for remanufacturing and recycling. If you don't accept these terms, return the unopened package to your point of purchase. A regular price cartridge without these terms is available."

Unfortunately, the court upheld the lower court's ruling that this "boxwrap" agreement does constitute a contract between Lexmark and the customer. The judges seemed to have no problem with the fact that any manufacturer could add similar post-sale usage restrictions on its packaging in order to eliminate aftermarket competition, or perhaps third-party support, or even the right of customers to repair, modify, refurbish, or resell the products they've purchased. Oh, well, it's not like we didn't already know which side most of our judges are on when the interests of consumer and business conflict.

Even this court, however, couldn't help but notice one interesting contradiction in Lexmark's position. "According to Lexmark, its post-sale restriction on reusing the Prebate cartridges does not require consumers to return the cartridge at all; it only precludes giving the cartridge to another remanufacturer," a footnote in the ruling noted. "The plain language of the contract does not clearly reflect this position."

Indeed, the language of this "contract" is plain enough. If you don't ship the empty cartridge back - and Lexmark told the court it only gets about half of them - then the U.S. Court of Appeals says you're violating a contract and infringing Lexmark's patents. And if that's not the message Lexmark officials wants to send us all, why did they write their license agreement that way and why are they in court essentially arguing for the right to sue their customers?

What speaks even more plainly is the clear purpose of all Lexmark's legal maneuverings: to restrict customer choice. Yes, Lexmark isn't the only printer manufacturer using expiration chips or other lockout devices to boost consumable sales, but only Lexmark seems determined to use the courts as well as technology. So the next time you're pondering which laser printer to buy, you might to send Lexmark a plain message while you're still legally free to make your own choice.

< Unpleasant Surprise Packages | Sprinting To Hold On To Customers >


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Lexmark Wins the Right to Sue Its Customers | 159 comments (159 topical) | Post A Comment
Still Confused...[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#1)
by Anonymous User on Thu Sep 08, 2005 at 09:21:48 AM PDT

How can you achieve any 'meeting of the minds' or 'agree', or have a 'contract' AFTER THE PURCHASE? I don't remember being presented with a contract before I paid for software in a store, for example. I may never understand this...

-Chris

[ Reply to This ]



Still [really] confused[I must be an idiot]...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#2)
by Anonymous User on Thu Sep 08, 2005 at 09:27:20 AM PDT

Since this [seeingly illogical] post-sale contract is thought to be valid without, perhaps one can simply cross out the parts of the agreement with a black marker that they do not agree to in this post-sale contract. Is this not fair? If one party can impose a contractual agreement POST SALE AND WITHOUT ANY ACTUAL AGREEMENT, should not the other party be able to do the same? Or is this just a one-way [crooked] street?

-Chris

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



I agree[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#10)
by Garminski on Thu Sep 08, 2005 at 11:58:01 AM PDT

This was my thought as well. Don't forget to initial and date your "changes" though to make it "legal". Afterall you would not want someone to say later that your contract changes were not properly done.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


One more step, I think[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#48)
by Anonymous User on Wed Sep 14, 2005 at 08:51:59 AM PDT

I think you also have to send them the marked changes. So you might want to add some words on the outside of the envelope along the lines of "Please read before opening. Opening of this envelope confirms your acceptance of the ... "

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


ask[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#139)
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[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Lexmark[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#124)
by Anonymous User on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 08:09:46 AM PDT

CGCnnjhxcy > * Cialis * Acomplia * Generic Viagra *

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


ask[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#116)
by masa on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 01:20:54 PM PDT

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[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Lexmark Cartrige Agreement[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#145)
by Anonymous User on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 08:58:24 AM PDT

I suggest that customers return their cartriges to Lexmark, but drive their car over the package before mailing.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


The wonderful 9th Circuit[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#3)
by Anonymous User on Thu Sep 08, 2005 at 09:51:50 AM PDT

The Ninth Circuit is the most overturned Circuit Court. With any luck, this will be yet another example of why they are the most overturned Circuit Court.

At least, to their credit, Lexmark did put the "agreeement" on the OUTSIDE of the box. All too often, the agreement is inside of the box.

[ Reply to This ]


Options[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#4)
by Anonymous User on Thu Sep 08, 2005 at 10:06:24 AM PDT

My understanding (from reading several articles about this suit) is that Lexmark offers its cartridges for sale at two different prices; only the "prebated" ones, which sell for a lower price, have this condition attached to them. If customers are willing to pay the higher price, they aren't subject to these contract terms, and are free to do whatever they wish to do with the cartridges. Unlike classic "shrinkwrap" licenses, the terms are printed in bold type on the outside of the package, so they are visible to customers before they purchase the cartridges. As much as I dislike many of Lexmark's recent actions, given the fact that customers have the option of purchasing cartridges that aren't subject to these terms, I don't see a problem here.

This assumes, of course, that non-encumbered cartridges remain available for purchase; if retailers won't stock them, or if there are "unexpected" delays in shipping them to retailers, the situation changes significantly.



[ Reply to This ]


...the problem is...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#9)
by Anonymous User on Thu Sep 08, 2005 at 11:31:53 AM PDT

this stupid decision will not stop at toner nor just IT-related items. It will be applied to the rest of consumer products. Do you what to have to make this choice the next time you purchase a suit: $200 if you will ship it back to manufacturer in Asia when not needed; or $300 if you want to be able to give it away? $20,000 for a new car if you will ship it back to the crusher or $40,000 if you what to resell it? What happens when wreaking yards are emptied and there are no used or re-manufactured parts to repair your seven-year-old car and there are only new OEM parts? Big $$$$$s to the OEM!!! What happens when the manufacture runs out of OEM parts? Not everyone can afford a NEW car every three years. A large part of the world economy runs on repaired, re-manufactured and used parts/products. Gheeezz, when did democracy and capitalism die because I missed the wake? This, my friend, I see as a big problem.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Better yet...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#14)
by Anonymous User on Thu Sep 08, 2005 at 01:32:57 PM PDT

What if the automakers decide to extend the popular "Employee Discount Pricing Program" with the following proviso:

In light of this "prebate", the purchaser agrees to have all service performed only at the manufacturer's authorized dealerships, using only OEM parts.

Of course, non-discounted cars would always be available.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



big problem[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#94)
by Anonymous User on Mon May 29, 2006 at 10:47:53 PM PDT

I also see a big problem that has appeared in recent times .Question ..what do we do about it if let too long it will be incurable and freedom will be no more.I suppose we could become slaves to big corporations like the ancients did when they built pyramids.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Interesting opinions...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#20)
by Jarulf on Thu Sep 08, 2005 at 11:42:41 PM PDT

>Unlike classic "shrinkwrap" licenses, the terms
>are printed in bold type on the outside of the
>package, so they are visible to customers before
>they purchase the cartridges.

So in your opinion, someone puchasing something, should be bound by any text that happens to exist on the outside of whatever they buy (with a third part, mind you, not the shop)? I assume when you buy food, you read every single text on it to see if there is special condition, for example, were you can eat it? Or when you buy a car, you crawl all over to see if there is a special agreement you get bound to printed on the car?

By the way, what IS the conditions for entering a contract in US anyway, those the "acceptance" not have to reach the one making the offer? Were is the line for when a contract is formed, as soon as you think about accepting it? What are acceptable "behaviour" that can trigger a contract? Appearantly opening somehting is. Can one go so far as having a contract be entered if you leave your house thorugh the main door? After all, you got the "option" to leave by a window for example? Extreme? Yes, but how much more than "opening something you own"?

>As much as I dislike many of Lexmark's recent
>actions, given the fact that customers have the
>option of purchasing cartridges that aren't
>subject to these terms, I don't see a problem
>here.

Why would that in any way help? Or be a requirement? And what are the conditions there, if they priced the alternative at 100 times the price, is it still OK? 100 times? 1 million times the price? Are you saying that only if there is available a product without conditions written on the outside you can enforce contracts written on the product? Do you feel the same should apply to software?


[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Re: Interesting opinions...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#40)
by Anonymous User on Tue Sep 13, 2005 at 02:38:56 PM PDT

``So in your opinion, someone puchasing something, should be bound by any text that happens to exist on the outside of whatever they buy ...''

That reminds me of a case that came up many years ago regarding the microscopic printed disclaimer that was on the back of the little claim check/ticket you'd be given at a parking lot. The parking lot owners tried to use that disclaimer as a contract that held that if your car were ever damaged while parked in their lot -- even though you were dependent on their employees actually parking your car -- that they were not responsible for the damages. The courts ruled that the consumers could not be held to that "contract" because there was no reasonable expectation that they would ever read the back of the claim check.

What the heck's happened in the mean time to make it necessary for me to read and understand all the legalese that's attached to every single freaking scrap of paper that comes along with virtually everything I buy?

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



What happened seems to be software[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#45)
by Jarulf on Tue Sep 13, 2005 at 11:25:08 PM PDT

It seems that what has happened is software and for some reason, when it comes to software, many people simply accept and think that all sort of strange things can and should apply. Things that if you simply changed "software" to "car", "chair", "book" or "whatever else", would make people feel outragous and that it would be unacceptable. But because it is software, then, well so be it. It spills over to everything related to computers lately it seems.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Good Point Here[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#72)
by Anonymous User on Tue Sep 20, 2005 at 07:32:22 PM PDT

I don't think this decision would have been upheld in the same manner had it not been clear by the existance of another cartridge unit at a higher price that this unit had special conditions attached to it different than those associated with the general market procedures for toner. And, even if it had, the use of such a contract would probably violate some antitrust law or the like. Alot of comparisions on this board are flawed because they tend to use only single product situations. I tend to view services like this as a "service" and not a "product" and therefore the "sale" as many people have hinted at can't be assumed to be a standard product sale type boilerplate contract. Still, Lexmark may have a stronger position by only selling such cartridges first party after manual enrollment into a cart exchange like program, but I think for once I actually agree with the court ruling on this one.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


But can you buy units without the contract? Nope.[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#5)
by Reziac on Thu Sep 08, 2005 at 10:12:45 AM PDT

This was discussed to death over on Slashdot, and one point several people made is that while the "no-prebate" carts are supposedly available, they were unable to locate ANY of same for sale ANYWHERE. So the fact is, if you have a Lexmark printer, you don't really have a choice; you're locked into the prebate-only, legally-non-refillable carts.

And the real target here isn't customers, but rather the 3rd party refillers.

The real kicker is that Lexmark used "patent infringement" as their legal blugeon, not mere "breach of contract". Apparently this is a great new way to get around the Moss-Magnusson act. If this horrible decision stands, you can expect a rash of new consumer lock-ins for every sort of renewable or refillable product.
~REZ~
[ Reply to This ]



Maybe the court was never told[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#7)
by Anonymous User on Thu Sep 08, 2005 at 10:18:32 AM PDT

Could it be (hopefully) that the court was never told that the alternatively priced cartridges are not available? Maybe the lawyers missed this point. Anyone know?

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


erfh[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#175)
by Anonymous User on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 12:06:32 AM PDT

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[ Parent | Reply to This ]


but Lexmark SAYS they're available...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#15)
by Anonymous User on Thu Sep 08, 2005 at 02:03:22 PM PDT

If you read the decision, the court based its decision on the fact that Lexmark had two different prices for the toner cartridge, but only the lower priced one had the contract on it. Since my company has a few of these printers (sorry, not my decision to buy them) we purchase these toners through an office supply company. I looked through their catalog, and a few others, and the poster above is correct: NOT ONE company offers both types of toner cartridge. Why should they? Their customers want the lowest price for what they need. If the customer doesn't return it to Lexmark, it won't be the customer's fault (at least, not yet). I brought this to my boss's attention and he said "I'll refill 'em wherever I want to." Why? Again, cost. And I'm sure my company isn't the only one who feels like this. So, how long will it be before every third-party refiller goes out of business and we are forced to buy only from Lexmark? Or until other printer manufacturers do the same?

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


CDW Stock Both[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#34)
by Anonymous User on Tue Sep 13, 2005 at 11:32:59 AM PDT

CDW stocks both, as well as third party cartridges. How much is HP paying all of you?

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


CDW indeed stocks both[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#44)
by ekuns on Tue Sep 13, 2005 at 08:07:25 PM PDT

Wanting to know the truth, I went looking for myself. I don't own a lexmark, have never owned one, will never own one for a large number of reasons. But I found one model cartridge at $299 "prebate" and $365 normal price. I'm assuming that since CDW lists both on the web site that they are capable of shipping it if ordered. I also see some remanufactured parts. Go there and search for:

Lexmark T630

Oddly, that search only shows the printer itself and the 3rd party toner cartridges. To see the Lexmark prices, search for "Lexmark Toner". This means that at least for this printer model (I picked one at random), the alternative parts are available.



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It's not clear, but[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#6)
by Anonymous User on Thu Sep 08, 2005 at 10:14:50 AM PDT

in reading this synopsis, I noted that this restriction would appear to apply only to their "reduced" priced cartridges. Is one to assume that if one buys a cartridge at 'full-price' one can send it elsewhere for refilling/remanufacturing? Of course, I am being naively hopeful with that statement! Next time I buy an ink cartridge from ANY manufacturer, I'm going to have a close read of their small print too - just in case.

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The problem...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#13)
by Anonymous User on Thu Sep 08, 2005 at 12:29:37 PM PDT

The problem is that if allowed to stand, that all products  may start to carry an 'agreement' that restricts what you can do with said item. But the fact remains that you purchased[I.E.; the item was SOLD TO YOU WITHOUT ANY AGREEMENT] an item. I fail to see how, with any level of rationality, a contract can be forced on someone AFTER the item is willingly surrendered to you in turn for compensation[when you bought it].

-Chris

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Litigation is the refuge of the incompetent[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#8)
by Anonymous User on Thu Sep 08, 2005 at 10:19:22 AM PDT

This, like Lotus 1-2-3 before it, will be the downfall of Lexmark. They make, IMHO, less than spectacular printers, and add to it this 'copy protection' scheme, and you have history repeating itself all over again!

Who cares about a contract with a consumable? I mean, just what are they thinking? What's next? Trash bags that can only be picked up by a particular waste management company? Paper you can only use in a particular brand of printer?

I, for one, will never purchase or recommend a Lexmark printer in any case, and I think this will only add to the cadre of consultants that will behave similarly. I just don't get why a company would go out of their way to piss of their customers. Maybe it's their Sales Prevention Force working overtime.

- Bob

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Already being done with trash bags[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#36)
by Anonymous User on Tue Sep 13, 2005 at 12:01:29 PM PDT

Actually, the trash bag thing is being done in my city - sort of. Only one company is contracted to do pickup of yard refuse (not the regular trash people, who won't touch the stuff). That company requires you to buy a specific bag or reusable container - which you must get from them - and only they will pick them up. [Needless to say, the people who make contracts for my city are really lame. Either they haven't the foggiest what they're agreeing to or they're getting kick-backs.]

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Lexmark wins "right" to sue[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#11)
by jstouse on Thu Sep 08, 2005 at 12:23:07 PM PDT

As a computer consultant who sometimes recommends hardware to his clients, I can catagorically state that, until Lexmark is the only printer manufacturer left, their decision to pursue this type of legal affirmation to limit my choices as a consumer, means that I will not buy, recommend or otherwise support their products. As the little guy, it's the only thing I can do, and I can only hope enough of "us" do so. In a free market place, if their products and services are good enough, they shouldn't have to "court" our purchases... Sign me: disgusted with Lexmark
frustrated in INDY
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Lexmark[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#50)
by dtomlin on Wed Sep 14, 2005 at 11:23:59 AM PDT

I am also a computer consultant and I support the comments of jstouse. Lexmark products will never be mentioned by me to clients unless it is to oppose their purchase.

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Giving Away Razors to Sell the Blades[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#12)
by Anonymous User on Thu Sep 08, 2005 at 12:28:35 PM PDT

Lexmark isn't really in the printer business; they're in the ink/toner business. I recall once buying a Lexmark color inkjet that didn't include a black cartridge. Out of the box, it could print in black only by combining colors (at great cost). I was even more surprised to find out that a black ink cartridge cost more than the printer! My daughter bought a Lexmark and when it ran out of ink she found she could buy an HP printer for less than the price of a Lexmark cartridge. The good news is, that's exactly what she did.

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Try that approach for books[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#16)
by ergo on Thu Sep 08, 2005 at 03:39:49 PM PDT

"Please read before opening. Opening of this BOOK or using the COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL inside confirms your acceptance of the following agreement. The COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL is sold at a special price subject to a restriction that it may be used only once. Following this initial use, you agree to return the BOOK only to Lexmark for remanufacturing and recycling. If you don't accept these terms, return the unopened BOOK to your point of purchase. A regular price BOOK without these terms is available."

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lexmark printer absurdities[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#17)
by aoz on Thu Sep 08, 2005 at 06:52:15 PM PDT

to all I am a physician. Just went to Ireland for 25th year wedding anniversary. on flight back, ad in magazine for duty-frree cigarettes, for two euro's, with the mandatory label, "SMOKING KILLS". Pretty cheap way to kill yourself Reason I mention this is that while reading this thread, I noticed the "ADS BY GOOGLE", on ed's site; all the ones that came up were for LEXMARK printers !! So we're suppporting lexmark by getting their ads while pointing out their deficiencies? oh, well...

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Oh lord, not books.[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#19)
by foxyshadis1 on Thu Sep 08, 2005 at 10:32:00 PM PDT

The google ads show up, but I doubt anyone who reads the article feels like clicking on them. ^.~

ergo, your suggestions is most likely the next angle this is going to hit; making it impossible to resell or even give away used books. Some publishers have been itching for something like this to come along for decades.

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This is actually what we need[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#21)
by ekuns on Fri Sep 09, 2005 at 08:47:24 PM PDT

This will all become non-enforcable as soon as someone tries it with something like a book or a car. But I fear it has to become truly ridiculous before the courts will fix this.

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Post Removed[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#39)
by Ed Foster on Tue Sep 13, 2005 at 02:34:41 PM PDT

Please do not click on any ads on my site that are not actually of interest to you. -- Ed

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Why not click?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#79)
by Anonymous User on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 04:03:08 PM PDT

Why do you tell us not to click ads? Are you paying for them and losing money? The way I understand it is that if an ad for lexmark were to come up, they would pay for the click-through to their site. You're just helping them out essentially!!!!!! If I don't understand, fine, but you better watch the fine line between supporting gripers against certain vendors but yet advertising for them. How could we beleive that you are objective? Maybe you don't claim to be, but I think that everyone feels that you are an advocate against these kinds of companies and their behavior.

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Re: Why not click?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#80)
by Ed Foster on Thu Oct 13, 2005 at 12:40:47 PM PDT

You are welcome to click on any ad that you are interested in. My comment was prompted because I removed a post in this thread that was suggesting something else. Since they are rather ubiqitous on the web now, I assume most of you understand how these contextual ads work. I don't control which ads are displayed, so if you're not interested in what's being advertised, just don't click on it. -- Ed

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Try that approach for books and....[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#22)
by Anonymous User on Sat Sep 10, 2005 at 06:58:21 AM PDT

Here's one better for you - substitute BOOK with (music/movie) CD/DVD/cassette/vinyl record.

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That's Divx![ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#23)
by ekuns on Sat Sep 10, 2005 at 10:14:56 AM PDT

At least as it was originally conceived. The consumer market soundly rejected that concept, but only because there was an alternative. I worry that the day is approaching where there will be no alternative ... and the industry apologists will still say that it was consumers that made the choice.

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Divx/Circuit City[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#25)
by Fushigi on Mon Sep 12, 2005 at 05:53:27 AM PDT

To this day I still refuse to patronize Circuit City because of their involvement with the Divx format. Truly an anti-consumer format.

And I share your concern about the future. It does appear we're heading towards a pay-for-(every)play model. Ultimately, I probably wouldn't even mind that if the fee was reasonable and the material was of high quality, but it is not. Hollywood and the entertainment industry can make good, high-quality works, but they mostly choose not to.

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Actors feeling the same way.[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#26)
by foxyshadis1 on Mon Sep 12, 2005 at 08:49:11 PM PDT

There was a great article in the paper today about asian blockbuster actors going back to hong kong because they're so incredibly typecast in Hollywood. Always yet-another-martial-arts-comedy. Particularly Jackie Chan, Jet Li, and Chun Yow-Fat. I've seen the awesome chinese films guys have starred in over the years, and I keep waiting for paramount or universal to just get the balls to stop remaking the same movies. Anna and the King excepted. (Though it was a remake.)

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Asian actors[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#27)
by Fushigi on Tue Sep 13, 2005 at 06:07:31 AM PDT

Well, comedic martial arts has been Jackie's forte for some time. Drunken Master being the best example. He's been trying to tone down the action and up the comedy lately since he's getting older, which is a wise move. But I think he'd have better luck overseas since his English, while passable, is not really going to cut it in a non-action movie.

Chow Yun-Fat was awesome in the John Woo films The Killer and Hard Boiled. It is just painful to see the movies he's made in the States.

Jet can still do some fantastic action sequences. Unleashed was decent and was probably the first of his non-HK films to not treat him as the Asian stereotype. I still watch the Once Upon a Time in China series and some of his other movies on occasion.

Yeah, Hollywood stinks. They seem to think there's a quota of only 3 movies a year with any originality; everything else is a sequal or adaptation of a mediocre TV series/book.

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yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#170)
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