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The FEULA Discussion, Part II

By Ed Foster, Section Columns
Posted on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 07:35:17 AM PDT

I've just posted the next version of the FEULA, our model Fair End User License Agreement. But this time we're going to do things a little differently. Since the Gripe Wiki gives us a much better collaboration tool than the GripeLog, that's where we should argue out the fine points of how to make a license agreement that's fair to both sides.

Both the original beta version and version .90.1 of the FEULA produced a wide range of comments and suggestions from readers, and I think both resulted in some improvements to the draft. But the process has still left it up to me to decide which ideas to adopt and exactly how to implement them, and I am neither the most qualified nor the most neutral party to be making those choices. Clearly, this is a job for the wiki.

So the next beta FEULA, version .90.2, is now posted at http://www.gripewiki.com/index.php/FEULA under the EULA category on Gripewiki.com. Those of you who are interested in this sort of thing should come take a look and help us wrestle the FEULA into better shape. You can jump right in and edit the draft of the FEULA itself if you're really sure of yourself, although of course others will have the right to change your changes if they don't like them.

But I think the real work of fine-tuning will be done on the Talk:FEULA page, which you can access by clicking on the "Discussion" tab on the FEULA page. One thing that's surprised me on the Gripe Wiki has been how even a small stray story can sometimes lead to interesting, highly involved discussions. So I expect we'll see some discussion threads here that will reveal a great deal about what the real bones of contention are in the structure of software license agreements.

In fact, moving the FEULA is just the first step to a number of EULA-related things I think can be accomplished in the Gripe Wiki that have been hard to do on the GripeLog. One that I'll be talking about more shortly is to really get the EULA Reviews I started last year moving again. Not only will the wiki make it easier for other reviewers besides myself to have their say, but it will help us get past the part that's really been stumping me, which is how to develop a testing/scoring system we can all use and understand.

And I hope readers will have their own ideas about projects they can use the Gripe Wiki to develop. Ever since we started the FEULA project, many readers have argued that you can't have a one-size-fits-all license agreement. The FEULA can work for consumer-oriented software products, they said, but what about higher-end products and services? What about having a fair service a fair service level agreement and a fair maintenance agreement as well? And, since it's no longer just software that gets sold with unfair terms hidden in the fine print, shouldn't we also have a fair website terms of service and a fair privacy policy? Well, yes, we should. And now that we have the wiki, all we need to get any of those projects off and running is for somebody to step up to plate and take the first cut. How about you?

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Post your comments about this column below or write me directly at Foster@gripe2ed.com. To receive this column every week in my free e-mail newsletter, please go to my subscription page and follow the instructions to opt-in for the EdFoster mailing list.

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The FEULA Discussion, Part II | 18 comments (18 topical) | Post A Comment

The problem is, do the makers really care?[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#1)
by Anonymous User on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 08:51:06 AM PDT

I don't want to be down on this whole "project" but do you really think the makers of software really give a damn about the comments posed in this hypethetical EULA? Do you think Microsoft, Symantic, and the others are going to change? I don't. Don't forget, never forget, it's all about the money. Nothing else.

[ Reply to This ]

How uplifting[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#2)
by Anonymous User on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 09:01:49 AM PDT

There's a fine example of the power of positive thinking.

Yes, this endeavor might not accomplish anything. So what? It also might accomplish something. You won't know unless you try.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]

Make Them Care With Your Spending[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#3)
by Anonymous User on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 09:02:06 AM PDT

The makers of software will care if enough people stop buying their products, or at least slow down their purchases of new releases. Repeatedly people post on this site how they've been screwed by "upgrading" to a new release, but rarely do they explain why they couldn't have lived with the old release for awhile longer. If you continue to buy like suckers, there will never be a change. Resistance by as few as 10% of customers can force dramatic change.

[ Reply to This ]

Never happen[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#4)
by Anonymous User on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 10:10:26 AM PDT

It's easy to stop buying from say, Symantic. But to stop buying from Microsoft? Now unless you're ready to switch to Linux, which most are not.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]

Microsoft's Biggest Competitor[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#5)
by Anonymous User on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 12:07:40 PM PDT

Microsoft's biggest competitor is not Linux but prior versions of Microsoft's own operating system(s). Many large companies are still using Windows 2000 because they have no compelling reason to upgrade. Many savvy individuals, too, are hanging on to their copies of W2K because it is as stable as XP and is the last version of Windows lacking product activation. Microsoft's worst nightmare is a massive refusal to upgrade. That is why product activation has become so important to them -- if you refuse to upgrade, they can lock you out of your own machine the next time you add a hard disk or video card, or simply have to reinstall to eliminate the accumulated "cruft."

[ Parent | Reply to This ]

Right on the mark[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#8)
by Anonymous User on Wed Sep 28, 2005 at 06:21:49 AM PDT

I have several PCs at home - one is XP, two are W2k, one is Win98, and one is still at Win95! The ONLY reason I have an XP box is because my work gave it to me to test on. And I'm still using Office 97... I don't see any feature in any of the new 20 gazillion versions of Longhorn (or whatever they are calling it now) that I "need"...Why should I upgrade? What I am now using already does what I want. AND, I will never install any MS product (or other manufacturers' product) requiring activation. And thank goodness all are Retail versions bought in stores with actual CDs (except the XP box, which rarely even gets turned on!).

[ Parent | Reply to This ]

yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#15)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:11:03 PM PDT

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[ Parent | Reply to This ]

yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#16)
by maderikapapa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 02:46:45 AM PDT

Some of us already have[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#6)
by Anonymous User on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 07:28:31 PM PDT

The question is how to nudge the remaining 9.999% needed to make the push.

Sites like Ed's GripeWiki help but we have to spread the word.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]

Fair Use stuff[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#7)
by goodkat on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 11:59:08 AM PDT

I just thought I would share. A while ago, I wouldn't buy software or movies from Target, because it was their policy to not replace them (even if defective) when opened. As I didn't think that was fair, I stopped buying them there. But recently, I bought my brother a movie at Target for his birthday, and I noticed something new on the receipt. Under each line item that listed either a movie or software, it stated "This item returnable for same item only if opened," or something like that. So, if they are defective, we can now take them back for the same item. Much better - I will once again be willing to purchase software and movies there.

-------------------------------------------------

To err is Human... to really foul up things requires a Computer (or big business)!
[ Reply to This ]

yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#13)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:05:43 PM PDT

Trust is a two-way street.[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#9)
by Anonymous User on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 02:45:54 AM PDT

It seems to me that there are two "fair" ways for the consumer to deal with the unfair EULA attached to software today: 1. Software companies play fair with consumers (something like this FEULA), consumers buy proper licenses and live up to them. 2. Software companies continue to write these unfair EULAs, consumers ignore them and make illegal copies of their software anyway. Given how little the software vendors seem to trust me and treat me with respect, they can't expect me to trust or respect them much either.

[ Reply to This ]

There is an important third option you left off[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#10)
by ekuns on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 10:07:39 PM PDT

3. Consumers refuse to purchase the items with the crazy EULA. Software companies notice the reduced sales and the sales moving to their competition which does not have such EULAs. Companies change their tactics because market pressure forces them to.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]

Alas...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#11)
by sconeu on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 08:20:03 AM PDT

Companies don't react that way. They use the RIAA/MPAA logic.

"What? Sales are down? It must be those Evil Content Pirates(tm)! Add more DRM immediately!"

--
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the United States of America.
[ Parent | Reply to This ]

Yes, but so what?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#12)
by ekuns on Wed Oct 12, 2005 at 08:51:25 PM PDT

If companies add DRM to a product that you haven't purchased and will not purchase, it's a non-issue. Yes? And when companies add more and more DRM, it will eventually encourage more people to follow and abandon those companies' wares.

For example, I don't care what Symantic does with any of its products, because I will never purchase anything from them again. I tell everyone I know to not buy from Symantec aka Norton, and I know that they lose many sales because of my advice. I explain that they used to lead the industry in quality and support, but that they decided to trade their brand equity for cash. When I explain what I mean by that, people understand. They understand why a company would do that, and they understand why it is wise to avoid purchases from those companies.

Note: I chose Symantec here for purposes of example. It's not like McAfee or any number of other companies are any different. My extended family will not purchase anything from a large number of companies because they know what they are in for if they make such a purchase.

By way of another analogy, if a company is producing rotton food, would you rather steal their food because its value is so low, or would you rather find good food to eat?

[ Parent | Reply to This ]

yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#14)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:11:00 PM PDT

dsafd[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#17)
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[ Reply to This ]

dxsdff[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#18)
by samezhen on Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 06:23:22 AM PDT

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