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Reader Voices: Privacy Pessimism

By Ed Foster, Section The Gripelog
Posted on Tue May 03, 2005 at 12:39:03 AM PDT

Readers have had a lot to say recently about identity theft, security breaches, unregulated data brokers, and politically influential direct marketers. Not surprisingly, most of their comments indicate they see little reason to hope our privacy problems will get better any time soon.


One reason for this pessimism is the unrelenting series of news stories about privacy lapses. "My research in trying to reduce the amount of sales material I receive blossomed into a search for privacy and security," wrote one reader. "I've found that the evidence overwhelmingly shows that we simply cannot trust that those whom have access to our information will keep it private, safe, and secure. The sheer amount of identity theft reported in the media today backs up this claim. I thought of citing a few reports, but realized that there is one major identity theft or loss of data privacy incident reported in the major news media every three days!"

The political clout of the Direct Marketing Association and allies is another reason for skepticism. "I am cynical about this entire industry's chain of advertising events and about counting on them doing anything to safeguard us from exploitation from unscrupulous businesses whose sole goal is to make money instead of providing a service," wrote another reader. "Our hapless government seems powerless to assist us by providing protective legislation with enforcement teeth. If we follow the money, it would not be surprising to find that at least some of our elected legislators receive campaign contributions from the direct mail industry and are therefore beholden to them. As long as we elect the good-looking, charismatic, and well-financed political candidates instead of seeking out those with high ethics, strict honesty, and high personal values, we get what we deserve. So unless you are actively trying to fight against these types of issues effectively, you are wasting your time and your ineffective efforts limited to griping are part of the problem and not part of the solution."

Indeed, some readers fear the government is only going to make things worse. "You cannot remove your information from a Choicepoint or even limit access to it," one reader noted shortly after that story broke. "Better yet -- or worse for us -- are the Patriot Act of 2001 and the Intelligence Reform Act of 2005 and the power that these Acts allow the government and businesses to wield. You can kiss your anonymous life and lifestyle as well as your privacy goodbye. It may be too late to undo the damage done by 'right-thinking' people. You'll know it's too late when you get a U.S. Driver's license rather than a state license, passports will need to be used when traveling from state to state, and your U.S. ID will be required to deal with the Government. Oh! What am I saying? These may have already come to pass!"

And in our interconnected world, even good privacy laws may not help. "I live in Canada and we have one of the toughest privacy laws in the world," wrote a reader north of the border. "It states among other things that keeping personal information beyond a relatively short term after the person is not a client anymore is illegal. The penalties are serious. The enforcement is poor, but another trouble is the limited territorial scope of the law. For example, when my mother wanted a Home Depot credit card, she gave her phone number, and the clerk said that was the number of my father -- who has been deceased for 20 years. They kept this information far longer than the law permits! After doing some research, it appears the database is kept in the U.S. where it's perfectly legal, and the data transferred here only on need ... which makes it legal here, too."

Privacy perils show up everyday in one's mailbox. "It constantly amazes me how much the marketing people believe that they have a right to send you solicitations and to transfer liability to you," another reader wrote. "I routinely receive 'convenience checks' from the credit card companies. All one would have to do is steal these checks from my mail box, and I would suspect that my 'friendly' credit card companies won't be too sympathetic at payment time. Why is that we must opt out? The right to privacy belongs to the receiver, not the sender. I would even advocate that the sender should pay me every time my personal data is bought or sold. Isn't that what intellectual property rights are all about?"

The revelation of just a little personal information -- such as the hotel one stayed at one night -- can have surprising repercussions. "A girlfriend of mine from years ago was convicted of paternity," one reader related. "That is not a typo. She was legally found to have fathered a child, and they were preparing to garnish her wages. The legal process failed, and it was only when she went to the press that the case was reversed. All of this because someone with the same full name as her with a gender-nonspecific first name fathered the child, and they found that she had stayed at a hotel in that area during that time period. So just imagine the false accusations that can be made of ordinary average law abiding citizens with a database of the breadth and depth of what Choicepoint gathers."

< Mandatory Arbitration Clauses | A MyFamily Tradition >


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Reader Voices: Privacy Pessimism | 26 comments (26 topical) | Post A Comment
Re: Privacy Pessimism[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#1)
by Anonymous User on Tue May 03, 2005 at 06:20:07 AM PDT

As I said yesterday about mandatory arbitration, nothing is going to change as long as big business and big government have such close relationships. Until the revolution, we are only useful for our private information and our money. ;)

Allen Tate
www.AllenTateComputing.com

[ Reply to This ]



You'd Be Suprised[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#2)
by oomplah on Tue May 03, 2005 at 12:22:27 PM PDT

I hear your pessimisim regarding privacy legislation, especically given the Patriot Act etc, however laws such as the California Privacy bill, along with several other state laws force "privacy offenders" to look elsewhere to do busniess in fear of lawsuits against them. I know in at least one occasion where a client that I work for does not do any busniess in california due to the large amount of privacy legislation in place. Many of their privacy laws are used as the stawman for federal legilsation being proposed nationally. I hate how choicepoint has all the data they have on me, and do blame DMA, and other well funded lobby groups, however with press like this, national legislatiors would be RETARTED not to back any bill in congress correcting some of this stuff.

[ Reply to This ]


Look in the mirror[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#3)
by Anonymous User on Tue May 03, 2005 at 12:36:23 PM PDT

Let's not forget that the original security breach happened with ourselves. We wanted the convenience of credit cards, so we gave away personal information like our SSN and household income. We wanted a few bucks off at the supermarket, so we gave our names and addresses to the store in exchange for a discount card. We wanted the government to promise us a retirement income, so we've accepted a national ID number that is now used to cross reference everything about us. And most people never even argue when asked for their SSN. Over and over, we trade our privacy for convenience or money. So who are we to blame companies when they lose our information due to theft or sell our information for money? My privacy can be stolen from me far more easily than from these companies, and I've sold my privacy for far less than these companies have. Granted, it's difficult if not impossible to have a comfortable life in this society without credit cards, mortgages, drivers licenses, etc. And I'm by no means happy with the way my private information is bandied about. But I really think we're in no position to feel moral outrage about it. It's our own fault.

[ Reply to This ]


some things are more than hard to live without[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#4)
by Anonymous User on Tue May 03, 2005 at 02:31:13 PM PDT

Yes you can live w/o credit cards. You can forgo a mortgage, but renting a place to live is just as bad. Try getting a legal job w/o a drivers license (or state id card), much less w/o a SS card. Good luck

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Blame me for the thief's dishonesty?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#5)
by Anonymous User on Tue May 03, 2005 at 02:41:38 PM PDT

"But I really think we're in no position to feel moral outrage about it. It's our own fault." By this reasoning, why not absolve anyone who ever commits any crime for any reason??? "Hey, I had every right to break into your house because your address and phone number are in the phone book, and I could see when I drove by that you had some really valuable stuff inside." It's absurd to say that, because you reveal information necessary to open a credit card account, you have no one but yourself to blame if a thief uses that information to rob you. By that yardstick, the whole concept of private property is a farce, because anyone who knows where you keep your valuables and where your vulnerabilities are can steal with impunity.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Response[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#9)
by Anonymous User on Wed May 04, 2005 at 05:06:05 AM PDT

Don't get me wrong; I'm not absolving anyone of anything. Consider Ben Franklin's famous saying "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." He's not saying it's OK to take liberty away from those who want safety, he's just pointing out how the world works.

Allow me to twist it a little: "They that can give up privacy to obtain a little convenience deserve neither privacy nor convenience." We have sold our own privacy. It was bought from us, not stolen from us. So far, we are still enjoying the conveniences.

So by all means, let's work to regain our privacy. But let's not fool ourselves into thinking that this is all the big, evil, corporations' fault. It's ours, too.



[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Privacy[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#23)
by Anonymous User on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 04:22:54 AM PDT

Anyone wanting my ssn normally gets a bullshit number.I simply don't give that information out. I'm 51 - I have a 14 year old son and a 52 year old wife that merrily giveaway thier information to any and all that ask. No matter what I tell them - they refuse to understand that giving information out is ~NOT~ a good thing.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


I have a hard time...[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#6)
by auctionhugh on Tue May 03, 2005 at 03:22:49 PM PDT

I have a hard time worrying about my privacy. Perhaps because I lead a very clean cut lifestyle. I just don't have things to hide or skeletons in my closet. I feel like I should be worried but I'm not sure how having my info available would be a problem, except for identity theft.

_________________________
Get help with your website from AuctionHugh's wife Kathleen.
Professional, artistic, and EASY for you!
Kallen Web Design of Michigan





[ Reply to This ]


I have a hard time...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#7)
by Anonymous User on Tue May 03, 2005 at 08:30:40 PM PDT

You know, I hear MANY folks declaring their "cleanliness" of lifestyle and the (somehow logical in THEIR minds) conclusion that therefore they have nothing to worry about. And they wonder at just what the rest of us might/must be doing to be so concerned and it makes me want to puke.

You dufus's should all just packup and move to some Communist hell-hole and live happily ever after in your blissful ignorance. You most surely don't deserve the freedom or what is left of the civil liberties that have been handed to you by sacrifice of those who have perished fighting to guarantee their availability to you.

Did you even READ what he wrote or are you just mouthing-off to the forum?
" The legal process failed, and it was only when she went to the press that the case was reversed. All of this because someone with the same full name as her with a gender-nonspecific first name fathered the child, and they found that she had stayed at a hotel in that area during that time period. "

The poor woman made the heinous decision to stay at a hotel.... that WITCH!...

Do you even begin to GRASP the stupidity of the machine that let's something like that happen to some totally innocent (of the crime accused at least) citizen, who's life was put into chaos over something so GROSSLY ignorant?

Go ahead and grin your haughty little grin, you always polite and correct talking, slow to anger, perfectly reasonable of judgement, nonviolent, never-does-anything-wrong-in-traffic, son of a gun...you (or your unfortunate offspring/relative in the future) MAY well find out just exACTLY what you've got to be worried about from the outrageous direction that this country's ignorant masses seems to be directing us.

I believe we may have reached the point at which a democratic republic begins to consume itself... but overall it's been a good experiment so far. <wink>

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Strong language[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#14)
by concept14 on Wed May 04, 2005 at 02:34:37 PM PDT

I would hope that readers could see your point even if you had not used such strong language.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Way to lose an argument, dude.[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#16)
by foxyshadis1 on Wed May 04, 2005 at 08:40:51 PM PDT

The way you blow off the handle just because someone says that they don't see a compelling reason to accept your argument probably does more to damage your argument than anything else you could do. Just because something is blatantly obvious to you doesn't make it so to everyone.

All I would say is that the collection of details too mundane to matter leads to problems if you become associated with something you thought was innocuous, like staying at a hotel, eating at a cafe later deemed 'frequented by radicals', traffic stops being used to evaluate your competence as an employee, and otherwise bringing lots of aspects of your life into unrelated areas. Of course that could work in your favor, but would it be any more fair and just than not?

Bad enough some use credit scores in hiring already.

And the problems people have with credit agencies constantly sending applications don't really have anything to do with privacy; it's about financial safety from predators, and responsibility for those who want to make money off of us by ignoring our safety.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



so what if you have a squeeky clean lifestyle?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#17)
by stevemilleresq on Thu May 05, 2005 at 09:49:40 AM PDT

The issue is not that you need not worry because you believe you have nothing to hide, but #1, what if you are mistaken, and #2, what about when (not if) mistakes are made? Attitudes like this permit the draconian loss of privacy, the dramatic loss of civil rights and lead to fascism. Americans have a legacy of strong protection from governmental overreaching (the very purpose of the Bill of Rights) which is severly diminished when people (rightfully or wrongfully) think they are immune from otherwise historically prevented governmental intrusion into their lives. In another context, most people do not commit crimes, and might think that criminals should not have constitutionally protected rights particularly because they believe they are law abiding people and have nothing to worry about. However, what's lost in that impression is the fact that such protections are in place to protect the innocent from the heavy hand of government and protections must be equally respected so that the innocent person's protections remains in place. If the day came when anyone, for any reason could be arrested without probable cause and jailed for indeterminate periods of time without being charged with a crime or the benefit of a trial or even habeus corpus rights, people who believe they have nothing to worry about will be sorely mistaken. (And that day is closer than you think. Just ask Jose Padilla's lawyer.)

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Privacy/Identify Theft[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#19)
by wagnert on Thu May 05, 2005 at 12:50:44 PM PDT

"I have a hard time worrying about my privacy. Perhaps because I lead a very clean cut lifestyle. I just don't have things to hide or skeletons in my closet. I feel like I should be worried but I'm not sure how having my info available would be a problem, except for identity theft." ----- Unfortunately, that does make you a number one grade A prime candidate for identity theft. The cleaner your records, the easier to steal your identity.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Um...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#20)
by Anonymous User on Thu May 05, 2005 at 11:03:40 PM PDT

...you're not thinking about it hard enough, then.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Pessimism, Indeed[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#8)
by Anonymous User on Wed May 04, 2005 at 04:49:58 AM PDT

I do the best I can, but I'm finding it's impossible to protect your own info. I got a locking mailbox, but the postal carriers apparently had a hard time figuring out how to use it. One of them left a box of checks on the front porch, even though the slot is plenty big enough to slide the box through. Besides which, I get mail from all over the neighborhood, so I'm assuming other people get mine as well. Those credit card checks are a huge hazard, especially since I don't know they're coming. My school uses SSN as a student ID. I just found out the company I work for is using data I gave them for one purpose for something else. They don't understand why I'm upset. It's really not so much about privacy as it is about fraud. Other people expose your data, but it's your problem when identity theft occurs. On the other hand, I'm delighted that lately several retail outfits have started to ask for ID when credit cards are used.

[ Reply to This ]


You shouldn't be[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#12)
by Anonymous User on Wed May 04, 2005 at 10:40:33 AM PDT

On the other hand, I'm delighted that lately several retail outfits have started to ask for ID when credit cards are used.
Credit card merchant contracts specify that a signed credit card is sufficient ID, and no further ID may be demanded. Despite such "loose" security, card-present credit card fraud amounts to $0.02 per $100 of overall charges, according to The Wall Street Journal's periodic updates on the subject.

I don't show ID for credit card purchases, and I resent the gas pumps that increasingly make me enter my billing zip code (i.e. valuable marketing data) before they'll condescend to operate. You're doing your part to create the "Your papers, please" society of tomorrow.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Well, I am[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#13)
by Anonymous User on Wed May 04, 2005 at 12:14:31 PM PDT

Sorry, but I'd rather that when someone is using MY credit card, there is verification that is really me. I don't care what their terms are, that is what I'd like MY terms to be.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Positive ID[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#18)
by Anonymous User on Thu May 05, 2005 at 10:01:17 AM PDT

American Express always requires the Billing Zip Code when electronically approving a purchase. This is not the merchant asking, it is AmEx. If someone tries to use my card, they probably do not know my Zip Code, and thus my card will do them no good. THANK YOU, AmEx.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


This is NOT a new problem[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#10)
by Anonymous User on Wed May 04, 2005 at 07:56:42 AM PDT

I've got news for the whiners about the Patriot Act and all the other current invasions of privacy. In 1969 I worked for a California direct mail ("junk" mail) house that was mainframe-computer driven. We bought mag tapes from every source imaginable -- ranging from the California DMV, US Census, and other government agencies to political parties' mailing lists plus various commercial databases. We would then select the criteria we wanted based on our target audience and aim our message at that audience. We would "personalize" the message, sometimes with the name and address, even the occupation or spouse's name, inside the body of the text. Yes, this truly was 1969. You youngsters wouldn't believe the private information that was sold even back then. This is not a new problem so don't blame it on the Patriot Act. Our government can't keep illegal aliens from crossing the borders, can't deport those whose visas have expired; what makes you think they'll start poring over the trillions of disparate database records that have accumulated in public and private organizations -- even IF they had the manpower, which they don't? Chill, man, the government and the Patriot Act aren't the ones to fear. It's the bad guys who misuse and steal what have always been there -- huge and unprotected databases of our private lives that are traded like so much fish on the open market. And that stinks.

[ Reply to This ]


Partially not new, that is[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#11)
by Anonymous User on Wed May 04, 2005 at 09:08:57 AM PDT

Yes, such violations have been around for ages. However, the problem with the Patriot act is selective witch-hunts, not the information per se.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Old issue of privacy vs. new fraud issues...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#15)
by Anonymous User on Wed May 04, 2005 at 02:43:45 PM PDT

True this is not an old issue of privacy but the ability of criminals to steal data and use it in fraudulent ways is exponential from 1969 due to 1. The computing power available today to anyone and 2. This here thing called the Internet. 3. Global communications enabled by the Internet which increased the raw numbers of criminals available to this fraud methodology. ec

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


PATRIOT Act Illegal in Canada[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#21)
by analyst on Tue May 10, 2005 at 08:29:11 AM PDT

They kept this information far longer than the law permits! After doing some research, it appears the database is kept in the U.S. where it's perfectly legal, and the data transferred here only on need ... which makes it legal here, too." The Canadian privacy law PIPEDA (passed Janurary 2001) establishes the following principles to govern the collection and use and disclosure of personal and private information: "...accountability, identifying the purposes for the collection of personal information, obtaining consent, limiting collection, limiting use, disclosure and retention, ensuring accuracy, providing adequate security, making information management policies readily available, providing individuals with access to information about themselves, and giving individuals a right to challenge an organization's compliance with these principles." (THE ACT) The short of this means that American businesses no longer have the right to use (in certain ways) Canadian Citizen's information. Recently the Canadian privacy commissioner has been cracking down on these violations which has resulted in many American service exporters losing extermely large and lucrative Canadian contracts. -analyst.

[ Reply to This ]


yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#209)
by maderikapapa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 02:45:43 AM PDT

出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Suggestion for safeguarding personal data[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#22)
by Anonymous User on Sun May 29, 2005 at 02:33:40 PM PDT

I think it would be interesting to see what happens if, when you fill out a form, you add the "circled C" on the form to indicate that it is copyrighted. Then add a note to the effect that transferring the data to any entity without your express approval is a copyright violation. Then, when it happens, sue the bastards.

[ Reply to This ]


yes[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#210)
by maderikapapa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 02:45:46 AM PDT

出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

[ Reply to This ]


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