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Norton's Knockout Punch

By Ed Foster, Section Columns
Posted on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 01:32:47 AM PDT

Although we know Symantec acquired the Norton brandname from Peter Norton, sometimes on the GripeLog you'd think it actually came from former heavyweight champ Ken Norton. That's if you're judging by the number of Symantec customers who feel like they've been on the receiving end of one big-time hammer blow after another.


My recent story about a reader who couldn't get Adobe Acrobat activation to work with his RAID array prompted many readers to report they had had the same problem, but with the Norton AntiVirus DRM instead. "Symantec told me exactly the same thing Adobe told him," wrote one reader. "If I want to use the RAID, I have to get Symantec's corporate version that doesn't have the activation ... The activation schemes are all just scams, anyway. After they make us struggle for a few days trying to get their product to work, they figure we'll be willing to pay anything for a DRM-free version."

As we've heard before, the activation bugs that plagued NAV 2004 don't seem to have gone away with NAV 2005. "I have tried every suggestion they have to install and activate and can't activate the program," wrote one reader. "After many, many tries to activate, I can only get as far as the 'click to activate your product' screen. It freezes, and I have to turn off the computer. I have tried their suggestions to activate by telephone. I get to the same screen and no way to activate by phone. Do they offer a website to check my CD to see if it is counterfeit? No, they do not seem to care. Ever try to talk with anyone at Symantec? They charge for calls, they do not answer e-mail. Symantec must think everyone is a crook with the same mindset they have."

Of course, many activation complaints are often support complaints in disguise, or maybe vice versa. "I purchased an online update to Norton AntiVirus in the fall and activated it at the time," wrote another reader. "Since then, I have had to reactivate it at least once a month, despite installing several of their 'fixes.' A few days ago I decided enough was enough and called their tech support. It was probably the worst experience that I have had with anyone's tech support. The person on the phone could apparently do nothing that was not on his cheat sheet and followed it religiously. I was instructed to download the "current version" of the fix four times -- double-click this, push this button, don't do anything until I tell you, run it, reboot, uninstall it, and do it over. After all that I was finally allowed to reactivate my software. After being treated like a complete idiot for an hour and a half, I was so frustrated that I felt like throwing Norton Antivirus in the shredder. By the way, I've been in tech support myself for 20 years, so I've got a pretty good idea of not only what to do but how a customer should be treated. This isn't it."

When activation doesn't seem to be the problem, Symantec customers may still feel like the jabs are coming out of nowhere. "Since installing Norton Systemworks 2005, something keeps disabling the antivirus program," another reader wrote. "I followed all the Norton recommendations to correct this, but none of them work. My own solution is to keep restarting my computer until it is enabled. Sometimes it enables on the first startup sometimes on the second and sometimes on the third. If it becomes enabled on some startups, why not on all of them? My real gripe, however, is that something seems to have gone wrong with Norton's business ethics. Has the only goal become to make money? Whatever the reason, we the buyers are consistently being taken advantage of by an immoral business."

Even having the corporate version and corporate support does not necessarily protect the customer from the blows. "On contacting support when an update would not load, I was told in no uncertain terms that I had mixed products and was in violation of the Symantec license agreement," wrote one corporate customer. "Further, I was told that the update would detect this and shut my system down. I asked what to do to fix this problem. The answer: Buy the right number of licenses for the correct product. Money spent on the incorrect product is, well, just lost. OK, I say, please tell me which SKU to buy so that I get it right this time. Answer: Oh, we can't do that, you'll have to go to your dealer -- the same one from whom I bought the 'wrong' product. Please let me talk to supervisor. Three days later, I get a call back. That's THREE days in a corporate environment. Supervisor: Sorry, but we don't have access to the SKUs, call your dealer. To QWEX^% with you -- I purchased the McAfee product."

Understandable, although McAfee's been known to occasionally hit below the belt as well. Keep in mind that readers have recommended many other alternatives for antivirus protection. And, hey, it's said that a certain Redmond-based firm is going to be climbing into the ring soon. Who knows, we may discover that Norton was really a lightweight all along.

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Norton's Knockout Punch | 38 comments (38 topical) | Post A Comment
AVG is the answer[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#1)
by wantobe on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 03:00:08 AM PDT

AVG, available at www.grisoft.com, is an excellent solution. It won't get the money you wasted on Symantec or McAfee back (because McAfee is just as bad), but will save you money and frustration. It's free for personal use, $33 per license for business use (or, if you get the network version, it boils down to about $30 or less per license), which gets you two years of updates and program upgrades (verses however much the other two charge for one year.)

I've been using AVG (and Avast, another free-for-home-use antivirus program for years, and have been very happy with it. Avast is also cheaper than Symantec for corporate use, but not as cost effective as AVG (in my experience.) Most of my clients have switched and are very happy to do so. No stupid activation, no stupid program defects, etc.

There are a number of good, free-for-personal-use and less-expensive-for-businesses antivirus programs, so if you don't like either of the above two you can find much better solutions than Symantec. Quit giving them your money if they can't treat you right. Otherwise, you have no one to blame but yourself now that you've been warned and informed.

Rob Miles
--
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't.
[ Reply to This ]



Dropped Norton[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#2)
by barcodetech on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 09:25:26 AM PDT

Absolutely agree with Rob above. I dumped Norton on a corporate scale last year, due to rotten support. Slowly integrating AVG as Norton subs run out. We are using AVG on several dozen clients as well as Exchange servers, and will never go back to Norton. Bob

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


AVG is good[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#3)
by Anonymous User on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 09:53:16 AM PDT

I use Grisoft's AVG free version and it's great. McAffee came with my most recent Dell and I uninstalled it as soon as I found that it requires ActiveX (probably the biggest security hole in Windows) for its UI and updates.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Yeah, AVG![ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#5)
by rodak on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 09:55:37 AM PDT

Just 2 cents more in favor of AVG.  It's free, it works - what more could you want?

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


AVG corporate isn't perfect[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#23)
by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 10:15:19 AM PDT

On top of McAfee's obvious shortcomings in business ethics, it fails to uninstall the Internet Exploder toolbar completely when one uninstall's the McAfee products...Nice! My experience with AVG corp has been mixed. The product works well on the desktop side and (thank you eastern bloc hardcore geeks) you can even set up a local definition server on a LAMP box using cron, wget and Grisoft's genctf7 manifest creation tool. THAT works like a frickin' CHARM! What DOESN'T work reliably is the management database system on Windows XP (at any SP level); it just won't reliably operate, and the module on the client side can only be set to ignore this condition on a per-user basis (which is a terrible PITA). Also, there seem to be some default settings that the clients continually "pass back" to the configuration database (when it's working) such that one cannot change or defeat certain default behavior. Rollout isn't nearly as easy as it is for Trend products (for instance); there's no remote install capability -- at best you can create an administrative install package that must be installed from the client console with admin rights...ACK! Their support isn't stellar in terms of response time, but they are sharp folks familiar with their systems, Windows and 'nix. That makes it an OK deal for businesses that need basic AV, but no good for someone who adds/removes workstations or makes config changes frequently.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


AntiVirus Software is a scam[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#21)
by Anonymous User on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 06:52:23 PM PDT

Macs do not need antivirus software.

Linux systems do not need antivirus software.

Only Windows PCs require Antivirus software! Why? Because Microsoft Windows is fundementally architecturely flawed!

You will know that Windows is properly and robustly constructed when no AntiVirus software is required to connect to the internet.

Until then you are purchasing and using a defective product.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



AntiVirus Software is a scam[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#31)
by Anonymous User on Wed May 11, 2005 at 07:28:33 AM PDT

Dumbass, Macs and Linux don't need antivirus programs because no one bothers to write viruses for them like they do for PCs because they are a smaller market.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


If that helps...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#33)
by Anonymous User on Mon May 23, 2005 at 11:40:00 AM PDT

...you sleep at night, then just go on believing that.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


My experience with AVG[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#40)
by Anonymous User on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:05:45 AM PDT

My experience with AVG corp has been mixed. The product works well on the desktop side and (thank you eastern bloc hardcore geeks) you can even set up a local definition server on a LAMP box using cron, wget and Grisoft's genctf7 manifest creation tool. xenical , levitra , clomid , buy viagra online THAT works like a frickin' CHARM! What DOESN'T work reliably is the management database system on Windows XP (at any SP level); it just won't reliably operate, and the module on the client side can only be set to ignore this condition on a per-user basis (which is a terrible PITA).

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Why use Norton, or McAfee?[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#4)
by Anonymous User on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 09:53:20 AM PDT

With AVG (free, reliable, effective) and other low/no cost antivirus solutions readily available and widely used, why would anyone actually spend money on Norton or McAfee? That's not just a rhetorical question - I'd really like to know why anyone would choose either of these for personal use. (Corporate use is another matter - I realize there are many other factors that force a decision for one product over another). Effectiveness at stopping viruses and prompt updates for new viruses can't be a good reason - in every objective review of antivirus software that I've seen, AVG, Norton and McAfee all scored within a few points of each other - not enough difference to drive a decision, imho.

[ Reply to This ]


Norton or Symantec[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#41)
by Anonymous User on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:06:42 AM PDT

I see the Norton or Symantec name on a program I just keep looking. I don't need the grief. order viagra , cheap viagra If everyone will do the same, this problem (and the company) will go away.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Second that re AVG[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#6)
by Anonymous User on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 10:10:20 AM PDT

I gave up on NAV a few years ago when it became impossible to renew subscriptions on several clients' computers... I finally realized that the package had to be upgraded but their system didn't make this clear at all, wound up wasting a lot of time.

After using AVG free version on a system at home for a year or so, they offered a bundle upgrade, $55 for 2 years of AVG and a copy of Kerio Personal Firewall. I'd been happy with ZoneAlarm (free version) but gave this a try.

AVG 7.0 is now working flawlessly, although the two-stage licensing procedure seems like an activation scheme, not sure about this. Admittedly I haven't changed anything on this system but it's working like a charm. I like Kerio as well although it's more of a handful than ZoneAlarm to get configured fully.

Any other input on Activation re AVG? I don't like activation schemes either but it occurred to me that antivirus software may be one situation where a vendor could make a pretty good case for it as their workload -- daily updates -- increases with every machine running their product. As I said, I don't even know if it's a true activation scheme or not, didn't really pay a lot of attention to it. But it's working fine with absolutely no hiccups whatsoever.

[ Reply to This ]


AVG's "activation" scheme[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#7)
by rodak on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 10:37:45 AM PDT

It's mildly tedious, but not difficult.  I've always just saved the password (or whatever they call it) and used it again in subsequent downloads/installs/reinstalls (even with newer versions, I use the same password).  I've never had a bit of trouble with it.  I think it's just their way of keeping track of who's using it.

It's an extremely minor annoyance in exchange for a great product.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



grisoft activation has become optional[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#20)
by Anonymous User on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 06:30:02 PM PDT

I set up their AV product for many home-user friends and relatives. I was never crazy about their activation, but the product is free. In more recent versions you can download the installer and register if you like, during the install or later. But there are no popups or other reminders to register.

It's great software.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



No More NAV for My Clients[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#8)
by Anonymous User on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 11:45:09 AM PDT

I was once a huge proponent of Norton AntiVirus, both in the consumer market and in the SMB space. After experiencing the full range of problems others have reported with NAV, I made a concerted effort to find the best alternative on the market. Last year that search led to Computer Associates' eTrust AntiVirus and I and my clients have never been happier. The product is lean in size, very accurate, updated virtually as soon as a new definition is created and it does not slow systems to a crawl. The enterprise version also has two different scanning engines, so I can deploy opposed engines on the server and the workstations for even more effective coverage and protection. I highly recommend eTrust AntiVirus as a terrific NAV alternative.

[ Reply to This ]


I am such a wimp![ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#9)
by Anonymous User on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 12:26:52 PM PDT

After reading the comments about Norton products I have decided I am really a wimp! Way Way back in my Windows 98 days I would get an error everytime I tried to do a system update. After many tries I read all I could to discover the problem. One thing that came up was to disable Norton anti-virus and try again. It worked. Norton anti-virus stayed disabled and was soon un-installed. Now as soon as I see the Norton or Symantec name on a program I just keep looking. I don't need the grief. If everyone will do the same, this problem (and the company) will go away. John

[ Reply to This ]


Norton Name[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#15)
by sconeu on Sat Apr 09, 2005 at 10:48:11 PM PDT

Peter Norton should sue Symantec for defamation of character.

--
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the United States of America.
[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Exactly[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#18)
by jlmoore on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 01:10:19 PM PDT

That's exactly what I was thinking.  Whatever happened to him?  Maybe they shrinkwrapped him and stuck him in a closet.

I'll also use this post to add my vote for AVG.  I even paid for the one on my laptop and if our company gets big enough for a corporate solution we'd go with Grisoft.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



I'm telling everyone to forget Norton[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#10)
by benttop on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 12:41:40 PM PDT

Virtually all of my friends and relatives depend on information from me when they are deciding how to equip their PC's. I'm telling them all to forget Norton (and McAfee) because they run their businesses in a dishonest manner. Why should we deal with dishonest buisnesses, when there are plenty of promising HONEST companies who WANT our business? I've had my fill of the dishonest tactics of Symantec. They have destroyed the great name of Norton.

[ Reply to This ]


Never did like Symantec taking over norton[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#11)
by mtbandit on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 12:51:58 PM PDT

I loved the Norton Utilities til Symantec bought them and started using Peter Norton's name on nearly everything they sold. It was a clear message that they knew their own product line was weak and they hoped to strengthen it by putting PNs name on anything they could. I've always preferred McAfee over Symantec AV at the enterprise level, even though they are abandoning the Novell platform (that's my primary network platform). And Symantec's purchase of Veritas makes me very uneasy about the future of the veritas backup solutions and their willingness to provide the support they do now (which, admittedly, ain't much). We're giving SyncSort seriouys consideration.

[ Reply to This ]


ditto[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#12)
by Anonymous User on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 03:48:03 PM PDT

More of the same here. Loved Norton since the begining of time but we are now divorced. Some didnt want to renew (wanted a new version i guess, never said why), one doesnt like to load all the time, and one that trashed windows completely during a program update. We even had several corporate versions available but couldnt find how to keep them updated as easy as the regular !?!? Was so impressed i installed one out of 15 paid (ok, free with hardware) licenses :( Norton is leaving as they expire or die. Getting replaced by Zonealarm with AV (eTrust) Talked the boss into a 50 copy lic for 20 computers so everyone could have one at home too if needed. $18 a piece was a good investment to cover the weakest link in security :) AVG was my first choice but too expensive to have a bunch of extras. More than twice as much as i needed to buy a firewall also.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


The solution is simple[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#13)
by alfagunner on Sat Apr 09, 2005 at 04:56:36 AM PDT

There is a very simple solution to all of this crap. It is called a class action lawsuit. There are actually times in life where lawyers perform a valuable function.

[ Reply to This ]


Why is it[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#16)
by Anonymous User on Sun Apr 10, 2005 at 02:51:30 PM PDT

people jump for the lawyers at the first sign of trouble? I prefer to vote with my wallet when I am unhappy. That is what I did 18 months ago and aside from an old copy of WinFax Pro, I do not own or use Symantec products.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Agree - Class action lawsuit may be in order...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#28)
by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 27, 2005 at 06:42:05 AM PDT

Add me to the list of burned NAV 2005 users. Loyal & happy through NAV 2004, the NAV 2005 upgrade is trash. Had to remove & move to competitor. Not the only one (eg. look at Amazon reviews), perhaps it is time for such an action. If anyone knows of one happening, please post back here.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


A nod to NOD32[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#14)
by MCohen on Sat Apr 09, 2005 at 07:35:37 AM PDT

I have been using NOD32 for a number of years and am quite pleased with it. I'm a consultant with a number of small (2-25 computers) clients and I've been moving them over to NOD32 from Symantec as their license expires. I've had absolutely no problems with NOD32, it always works, downloads updates etc (unlike Symantec) and none of my clients have had a virus get by NOD32, period. But even more astonishing is that for the past 2-3 years I've been dealing with the same person at NOD32, whenever I call I ask for her and either get connected or leave a message and she calls back. Finally, how's this for a scenerio: I had a client w/ 6 workstations who was merging with another company. The end result was to be 2 workstations left and 4 moved to the new company location (unfortunately the new company still uses Symantec). Anyway, the NOD32 license needed to be renewed 2 months before this happened. I called and asked if we could renew 4 workstations for 2 months and the other 2 for a full year. The answer - "yes, of course". And the price certainly relected that. Great people to work with.

[ Reply to This ]


Goodbye Symantec![ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#17)
by Anonymous User on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 05:26:00 AM PDT

As with many others, I used to be an enthusiatic user and major proponent of Symantec and Norton software. In the past I've owned Norton Antivirus, Ghost, PCAnywhere, and some others. But one by one I've replaced these programs with alternatives. Why? Symantec's continued push to make defective product activation standard across it's product lineup. They seem to want to go out of their way to punish legitimate users. Well it's like this. If you feel your product is so special that you can't even permit paying customers to use it, you can just KEEP IT! Goodbye and good RIDDANCE Norton/Symantec!

[ Reply to This ]


The heck with symantec[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#19)
by PhilR on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 03:13:55 PM PDT

If you've already paid for Norton's AV 2005 and can't get over the activation scheme, just log into a P2P network and download a pirated copy which will have the activation scheme defeated. If you haven't spent your money yet, just use AVG as suggested by others. It's free for personal use and a lot cheaper than Norton AV for corporate use. I used to be a Norton Utilities fanatic. But these have only declined since Symantec bought them over. Bye-bye Symantec and good riddance.

[ Reply to This ]


NAV[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#34)
by Anonymous User on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 04:26:36 PM PDT

What's a "Cracked Version"?

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Norton's Knockout Punch[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#22)
by Wild Bill on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 09:24:29 AM PDT

I have been a Norton / Symantec user for more than 10 years. But my purchase of Systemworks 2004 will be my last Symantec purchase. Over the years their tools have gotten fewer and feebler. I have had to contact Symantec tech support several times of the years, and the quality of their support has degraded to the point where I no longer bother. The last straw for me was a conflict between Norton Antivirus and my Soundcard utility program. The assistance I got from Creative was great, the response I got from Symantec was, they couldn't have cared less. I now run Trend Micro PC-cillin. William Jennings

[ Reply to This ]


Not a fan of Norton[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#24)
by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 01:32:56 PM PDT

Norton AV has sorely tested my patience many times. I keep finding PCs on our network with DAT files months or even years out of date, silently chugging away with no notification, no warnings, no nothing. I usually can't stand "nag" screens that keep reminding you to do something, but NAV seems to be incapable of sending a message that their AV files are out of date. I still haven't figured out how to get it to consistenly warn the sysadmin and/or users that it needs to update.

[ Reply to This ]


Obvious Workaround[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#25)
by Anonymous User on Thu Apr 14, 2005 at 12:01:29 PM PDT

I hate to say it but...if you use a cracked version, you don't have to be bothered with all the product activation B.S.

[ Reply to This ]


Norton activation problems[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#26)
by Anonymous User on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 11:47:48 AM PDT

As we've heard before, the activation bugs that plagued NAV 2004 don't seem to have gone away with NAV 2005. "I have tried every suggestion they have to install and activate and can't activate the program," wrote one reader. "After many, many tries to activate, I can only get as far as the 'click to activate your product' screen. It freezes, and I have to turn off the computer. I am having this exact problem right NOW!!! How in the blue hell do i solve it!!!!!!

[ Reply to This ]


MS is really starting to blow...[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#27)
by Anonymous User on Mon Apr 18, 2005 at 02:35:19 PM PDT

Yo, Symantec products are wretched for the most part AFAIAC. The last time I actually enjoyed using one was Ver 1 of Peter's NT Defragger, and then Ver 2 came out and blew things to bits. Peter was a great fellow to follow around in the days of DOS. Symantec took his stuff and turned it into some of the worst utils I have ever seen. Giva a look at V-COM's System Suite V (an extension of On-Track's earlier product Fix It), a very spiffy do all that does it all very well. It also has Trend's AV built in and I get updates every day or two as well as an occasional Beware msg from Trend. Innocuous use of the machine, and even has a decent in and out Firewall as well, though I prefer the free Zone A product for its outgoing lock. I couldn't be happier....

[ Reply to This ]


Anti-Symantec[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#35)
by Anonymous User on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 06:14:21 AM PDT

Last few weeks was all waste of time trying to "Activate" Symantecs NIS, which, like countless of poor honest souls who bougth the product, worked for a while as long as you had to reactivate it every month! No more Symantec for me! And hopefully for all of you out there. I am in the process of downloading AVG from Avast as I write this. I am now proudly Anti-Symantec, and so will everyone I know!

[ Reply to This ]


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