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Getting Rid of EULAs While Keeping the GPL

By Ed Foster, Section The Gripelog
Posted on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 12:11:29 AM PDT

Rather than just trying to tame EULAs, as I'm doing with my FEULA project, some readers argue we should just get rid of them altogether. While not lacking in sympathy for that idea, I've always wondered how you could invalidate the bad EULAs without also invalidating good license agreements such as the free software GPL. One reader argues persuasively that it could be done, so I thought I'd share some of his comments with you.


"I am not exactly sure why we need a license to say that vendors and end users retain exactly the rights they already have under copyright law," the reader wrote in response to the beta FEULA. "One of the most fundamental problems with EULAs is the presumption that they are needed. This approach also completely avoids the messy problems regarding whether shrinkwrap licenses are even legal. Copyrights have worked for most other publishers for centuries. Sure, they have problems, but the only thing that really distinguishes software is the ease with which it can be copied. Oops, so can e-books, music, and increasingly DVD's. And all that EULAs have done is persuade the traditional publishing industry that they now need one too."

The reader, a big Open Source fan, argues that the GPL works in a fundamentally different way than EULAs that take away rights. "The GPL provides the user with rights significantly beyond those of copyright," he wrote. "I do not believe the GPL in any way takes away a right you would have otherwise. But it grants some very broad rights beyond those of copyright in return for agreeing to some limited restrictions on those new rights."

EULAs on the other hand are based on the very disputable premise that they are real contracts. "A EULA aspires to be a contract -- if it is not a contract, then it is meaningless," the reader wrote. "For a contract to exist there has to be an offer and acceptance, a meeting of minds. These are ancient legal concepts. For software sold at retail a contract was completed at the time of purchase. The shrinkwrap license agreement is an attempt to modify that contract AFTER the fact, something that is possible but not trivial. To modify the original agreement -- which basically is you have bought my software for money and have the right to do whatsoever you please with it constrained only by copyright law -- there has to be a new offer that has to offer something of value you do not already have. Otherwise, you do not have a new contract."

EULAs are just one part of the much larger problem of an intellectual property system that no longer serves the public interest. "The U.S. Constitution makes it absolutely clear that patents and copyrights are there to serve the public interests, that the interests of the patent and copyright holders are NOT significant," the reader wrote. "Any intelligent assessment of intellectual property rights reveals they are at best a necessary evil. As much as those of us who create patentable or copyrightable works wish to claim them as our own, they are not. Patents are legally supposed to be about implementations, and copyrights expressions, but ideas cannot be owned. It may appear to be stealing for one person or company to copy the idea of another. But whoever came up with it in the first place did not create the idea. It was always there."

"Technology is making it crystal clear that the distinction that we made in the past between ideas, and their expression or implementation, is fictitious," the reader continued. "Computer programs come incredibly close to the pure mathematical expression of ideas. But our desire to reward those who worked to produce them has blinded us to the fact that we are selling the laws of mathematics, nature or God to the first person wise enough to try and patent or copyright them. The patent system, for all its rife evils, eventually expires. Most of the stupid patents granted today will expire before I die -- absent another stupid extension into infinity like the last Copyright act."

Ultimately, the reader believes that the marketplace will do the job of getting rid of EULAs for us. "Of course, why am I arguing for the elimination of EULAs -- the more egregious the EULA, the greater the interest in Open Source. In the end I believe in Adam Smith's invisible hand. To paraphrase: treat customers like crap, even with the permission of the law, and they will find another solution."

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Getting Rid of EULAs While Keeping the GPL | 26 comments (26 topical) | Post A Comment
An older related Groklaw article[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#1)
by cjovalle on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 08:00:09 AM PDT

The GPL is a License, Not a Contract, Which is Why the Sky Isn't Falling from Groklaw
cjovalle

[ Reply to This ]


So how can a EULA take away rights?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#2)
by Anonymous User on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 10:40:57 AM PDT

The GPL is a license giving rights above and beyond those given under copyright law. The EULA (End User LICENSE Agreement) purports to take away rights given under copyright law. Can a license actually legally take away rights? If the definition of a contract is truly something given in consideration for something received, then a EULA must be a license, so I would like to know if it is a valid thing for a license to take away usage rights.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


License? Contract? Who cares?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#4)
by Anonymous User on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 11:12:16 AM PDT

License? Contract? Isn't that all just word games? A license is WORTHLESS if it is not backed up by a contract. It is the CONTRACT (an AGREEMENT BETWEEN PARTIES) and ONLY the contract that makes a license enforceable. If I have not AGREED to the license (which is the CONTRACT part), then I am not bound by the license. That is why the EULAs always say "Click here if you AGREE". AGREEING is the CONTRACT. But can a EULA BE a CONTRACT when it offers nothing NEW to a previous contract: the offering and ACCEPTANCE of money (which constitutes the original contract)? I am not a legal scholar, so I can't answer that question. If the vendor agrees to give a full refund (including shipping?) if you do not agree to the EULA, then perhaps a EULA is just an "understood" extension of the original purchase contract. BUT, if the vendor will not refund the purchase price which constituted the original contract, then it would seem that the EULA cannot be considered an acceptable (legal) extension of the original contract -- otherwise a vendor could put all manner of impossible terms in the EULA. And, isn't this really the reason for all this sturm and drang about EULAs? More and more often, vendors are adding more and more outrageous restrictions. So, does it all come down to: "Can a license [or a contract] actually legally take away rights?" Can it? Can I AGREE to sell myself into slavery? Would a court of law uphold such a contract? If not, where is the border between your rights and the limits to which you can VOLUNTARILY GIVE UP those rights? Anybody out there have an answer to this question?

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Towel Boy[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#5)
by Garminski on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 11:57:26 AM PDT

Isn't a EULA how Dilbert became Bill Gates towel boy? Some days I don't know whether to laugh or be afraid of Dilbert cartoons...know what I mean?

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


The GPL does not need a contract[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#14)
by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 05:17:01 AM PDT

A license is WORTHLESS if it is not backed up by a contract.

Not in the case of the GPL, since it uses Copyright laws as its enforcement mechanism, which in the case of redistributing code is an efficient and elegant solution.

Keep in mind, you don't have to agree with the GPL to use GPL'd software. The GPL is all about source code reuse and redistribution. If you reuse or redistribute code, you've agreed to the terms of the GPL. Nothing else gives you those rights.

Violating the GPL in reuse/redistribution is tantamount to admitting "Yes, your Honor, I'm busily violating someone's copyrights." In the USofA, that has financial as well as potential criminal liabilities.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Oops[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#15)
by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 07:55:15 AM PDT

Yes, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that in the absence of a contract ANYTHING GOES. Even without a contract, all existing legal protections would exist and would apply, such as copyright, patent, DMCA (ugh!), etc. But, still, I wonder, how can the terms of a LICENSE be enforced WITHOUT a contract? Is that possible? Can I be held accountable to the terms of a license if I DON'T KNOW and DID NOT AGREE to a license. What if I just found some GPLed software on a disk and incorporated it in my own proprietary software. I can see how the remedy might be to force me to remove the GPL code from my software, but I don't see how any additional liability can accrue when I was ignorant of the license. A CONTRACT PROVES knowledge. The mere existence of a license does not. Can any legal scholars respond to this?

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Re: Oops[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#19)
by warnold on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 02:47:16 PM PDT

but I don't see how any additional liability can accrue when I was ignorant of the license
This is easy.
Acording to the GPL, no additional liability accrues due to the GPL. If you have agreed to the GPL and then violate it, the penalties are 1) You loose the rights you gained under the GPL. 2) you will be subject to the penalties for copyright violations from the time you became in violation of the GPL.
If you have not agreed to the GPL, then you are subject to the penalties for copyright violations from the time when you made a copy.

Note that agreeing to the GPL and then violating it is less liability than not agreeing and violating copyright. (by the amount of any copies you legally made between the time you agreed, and the time you violated)

The GPL is really interesting in this way. Whether you are subject to it or not is entirely up to you. Your liability comes from your actions, and the GPL only removes liability if you agree with it.

--
-billy-

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



About the GPL[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#23)
by Jarulf on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 11:15:19 PM PDT

I think this is an important and interesting point about the GPL you make. It is in fact, in my point of view, a true copyright license in that it actually grants you a license to part of the right the copyright holder has. It is a true license or permission to do something you could otherwise not do.

A EULA on the other hand, has minimal connection to the copyright or exclusive rights of the copyright holder. It typically does not at all grant you any additional copyright related rights. Actually it, normally, tries to restrict you in uncountable ways. It is, again in my point of view, a normal contract set up regulating (restricting) your behaviour.

The fact that both happens to contain the word "license" should not fool people into believing they are similar or about the same thing, and in the case of EULA, it is actually a bit bad naming.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



The GPL is a License not a contract.[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#10)
by Anonymous User on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 09:08:52 PM PDT

I hate to disagree with Groklaw, but a license is a contract. And by the definition of license at the link provided an EULA is NOT a license. Regardless the FUNDIMENTAL issue is that the "licensee" must get something that they do not have otherwise - pretty close to the classic definition of a contract. Basically, a License is a type of contract.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Copyrights good enough for yesterday[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#3)
by Anonymous User on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 10:49:23 AM PDT

It should be noted that twenty years ago, copyrights - along with a simple disclaimer of warranty - were good enough for software publishers, too. Software was no less easy to copy in those days. The EULA is a fairly recent "innovation".

[ Reply to This ]


Constitution[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#6)
by Anonymous User on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 12:24:04 PM PDT

Your email correspondent's comment that
The U.S. Constitution makes it absolutely clear that patents and copyrights are there to serve the public interests, that the interests of the patent and copyright holders are NOT significant
is interesting, provocative, and fabricated out of thin air. The relevant section of the US Constitution reads as follows:
The Congress shall have the power...To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
It actually sounds like the interests of the patent and copyright holders are essential, according to the Constitution. The modern challenge is to identify the appropriate "limited Time" to protect and to encourage "Authors and Inventors" so that they may promote "Progress of Science and useful Arts". Your correspondent's comments serve only to distract from the real issue by inflaming the issue. Finally, your correspondent asserts:
Any intelligent assessment of intellectual property rights reveals they are at best a necessary evil.
If I remember my undregraduate Logic course correctly, this is a rhetorical technique known as an "Argument From Intimidation." Your correspondent hopes that if we accept that their "any intelligent assessment" remark is true, then we will also accept that any disagreement with the rest of their argument is, by definition, not intelligent. Sorry, but that bullying approach has much more in common with the EULAs we are complaining about than with any likely solution to the problem.

[ Reply to This ]


to promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#8)
by Anonymous User on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 02:01:42 PM PDT

The line you quote specifically defines thye purpose as "to promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts". That is a public good. The fact that rights are given to authors to acheive that end is clearly a side effect.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Side effects[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#25)
by Anonymous User on Fri Apr 15, 2005 at 05:55:45 PM PDT

"Side effects" do not precede the treatment. From a cause and effect perspective, it seems more likely that the "Progress of Science and useful Arts" is a side effect of establishing author/inventor rights.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Constitutional fabrication[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#11)
by Anonymous User on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 09:25:37 PM PDT

You have pretty much quoted enough of Article 8 Section 8 to make the point. The objective is to secure progress and the advancement of the useful arts. That is a public not private good and it is secured by trading some of the publics rights away - limited by he constraints of Article 8 Section 8. Though the current supreme court has pretty much found the limits mentioned to be meaningless. Your post makes the logic error of confusing the means with the ends. I will conceede that there probably is an assesment of IPR that does not presume them to be a necescary evil. Certainly people like Burke, Jefferson, and Madison considered them evil. The primary point of debate was whether they were necescary or not.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Means and Ends[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#26)
by Anonymous User on Fri Apr 15, 2005 at 06:23:26 PM PDT

Sorry, but your mind-reading skills are not very well developed. I was quite conscious of the relationship between means and ends as I wrote the posting. You can challenge whether or not IPRs are "necessary" for optimal promotion of the public good (simple inspection of the success of various systems suggest that they are), and you can debate whether or not they are "evil" (to the degree that Burke, Jefferson, and Madison were merely engaging in the rhetorical fashions of the day, they can be excused; to the degree they thought that IPRs are actually evil, well, they were wrong. No shame in that; even the great ones get it wrong sometimes. Paraphrasing Jefferson, "error of opinion can be tolerated where reason is left free to comabat it.").

The real (i.e. practical) point of debate is to identify the length(s) of exclusivity best able to optimize the public good (i.e. the end) without jeapordizing the pre-requisite (i.e. necessary) means of IPR. I realize that this is perhaps not the most commonly articulated argument in certain circles. That doesn't make it wrong, and it doesn't mean that I am ignorant of my own logic.

PS. I'm not a regular reader of this site (just passing through), so I'm not sure if I'll remember to take a look for any responses or if I'll post again.



[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Adam Smith's Invisible Hand[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#7)
by NegotiationPro on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 01:47:34 PM PDT

While Adam Smith spoke of the invisible hand of the market, he never believd or said that the market would cure all ills.  He certainly believed government needed at times to step in and rein in the greed of some vendors.  

That would seem to apply  to vendors usign over-reaching EULAs.  The market is currently dominated by these hogs, and we need a federal law to limit them, as many pratices are limited, e.g. in credit reporting, truth in lending, pharmaceuticals, and many other examples (state law in the case of insurance contracst).  Sometimes buyers are outgunned and need a helping hand. That is what goivernment is, among other things, for.
Phil Marcus
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Do we need a law ?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#12)
by Anonymous User on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 09:42:39 PM PDT

The history of congressional action on Intellectual property rights has been abysmal. The current mess is more the result of exploiting legislation than a failure of the marketplace. In fact there are numerous signs that the existing system is failing and the marketplace is looking for a fix. The existance and success of Free and Open Source software is a reaction to the failure of the existing system. IBM and Microsoft are arguing for substantial patent reform. P2P is one giant self serving act of civil disobediance rejecting copyrights. Regardless of what the EU eventually does, there is a serious fight over IPR. And the developing world to a significant extent seems to have come to the realization that buying western IP permanently guarantees them a second or third tier status. I do not trust congress to do anything but make things worse. But then even that just speeds up the collapse of the existing system.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Different things.[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#9)
by Anonymous User on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 07:18:50 PM PDT

An EULA defines how an End User may USE the product. The GPL defines how the source code may be utilized in SOME OTHER project. They are fundamentally different things.

What Adam Smith said is that individual actors profit by fulfilling their customers needs. Better profits are made by better fulfilling those needs, thus, as if there were an invisible hand, different actors cooperate or compete in ways which tend toward efficiency. Social order is a direct result of this market liberty to interact, because violence is extremely inefficient and wasteful of resources. While you're wasting your time on vendetta, your competition is undercutting your prices.

Note "tend" toward effiency. No market interaction is ever completely efficient, because by the time you've figured out how to fulfill someones wants, they've changed their minds. Basic human nature.

Check out the articles on www.mises.org, especially the classes available in the audio section. Really good explanations of the whole "invisible hand" idea.

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Where do we go from here ?[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#13)
by Anonymous User on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 10:03:05 PM PDT

That is the most fundimental question all this leaves unanswered. Criticising the existing system is incredibly easy - I know it is my criticism. But unless you beleive in the elimination of Intellectual Property rights - a return to the system that worked for almost 6000 years of human existance - albeit without instantaneous zero cost copying. Then there needs to be some consideration of where we should go. There I have to appologize. I do not have the answers - except that what we have does not work, and it only gets worse with every new act of congress. I would like to advocate that bright line purist patents and copyrights have failed lets do without them. I like bright lines. I beleive that without copyrights and patents, songs will be sung, books will be written, programs coded, and machines invented. But like the US founding fathers, I beleive that some weak protections will benefit us all. I am not going to create the IP policy for the 21st century, but I expect to get to watch is that of the latter half of the 20th century slowly collapses.

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How can a license BE a contract?[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#16)
by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 08:17:06 AM PDT

This discussion is probably pretty much played out, but I'd sure be interested to know a couple legalistic type things about this whole license/contract issue if anyone knows the answer and is willing to respond. First, how can a license be a contract (as was stated above)??? A contract requires acknowledgement of terms and agreement to them, does it not? The mere existence of a license or contract does not imply either acknowledgement or agreement. It is perfectly possible to acquire intellectual property without awareness of any terms of limitations or usage. I can see that a reasonable remedy AFTER the fact of improper usage would be to halt such usage and require the surrender of any profits made from such usage, but in the absence of knowledge of the terms of a license, how can any CONTRACTUAL penalties be applied. Isn't a LICENSE nothing more than the terms that comprise a POTENTIAL contract? How can any actual contract exist without acknowledgement AND agreement?

[ Reply to This ]


Contracts and licenses[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#17)
by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 08:58:17 AM PDT

Like everyone here, I am not a lawyer, but, years ago in my contract law class, I remember a phrase: "a meeting of the minds". In order for a contract to exist, there must be a meeting of the minds between the parties. This means that all parties must understand the contract and agree to its terms. The part that most people have trouble with is the "understanding". We don't allow minors to enter into contracts because it's likely they don't understand the rights and obligations in the contract. In business, contracts are entered into only after the parties have consulted lawyers and understand the language. Consumers can't be expected to consult lawyers to understand the terms of EULA's every time they buy software. There can't be a "meeting of the minds"; therefore, there can't be a contract. Just my binary 10 cents' worth.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


"A Necessary Evil", really?[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#18)
by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 10:00:03 AM PDT

My name is Anatoly Volynets. Sorry, for breaking your rules, but I just do not want to create another account, for am not sure I will keep coming here.

It is generally accepted that exclusive rights do provide incentives for authors and thus they termed as necessary evil.

The necessity of evil has made me so suspicious that I conducted a very detailed analysis and have come to conclusion that exclusive rights have never served the purpose. The logical case study is published at: Dialogue of Cultures site. It is '3 Models' article there. Thank you.

[ Reply to This ]



Necessary Evil[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#20)
by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 03:17:34 PM PDT

Copyright is absolutely a necessary evil.

So far as EULA and exchange money at a store goes; I've posted it before, I'll post it again.  Your transaction at the store is between you and the resaler, not between you and the publisher.  You have agreed to precisely nothing by exchanging money with a third party who has no intrest in the development of the product itself, your agreement with the publisher is inside.

While most stores won't honor it, the EULA advises you, in most cases, to take the product back to the place of purchase for a full refund if you disagree with the license.  You can, of course, mail it back to the publisher also.

You can argue about the terms, etc. but the issue is end-users don't understand software very well to begin with, evidenced by things like people not understanding CounterStrike: Source is a modification for Halflife 2 and not a stand alone product, etc.  The publishers are strugling with how to get end-users to understand that having two copies of a program running at the same time is wrong.

The GPL is one of the most opressive licenses.  By giving a friend a copy of any GPL program, you yourself are bound to provide them with source code for 3 years, as many times as they ask, whenever they ask, for not more than the cost of media and a reasonable handling fee.

Moreover, because the person who gave you the original copy is only bound to give you the source for 3 years, you have to make sure to obtain the code from them at the same time you obtain the binaries.

The code must include all machine readable elements used to produce the executable.  Continuing down this path, most Linux distributions are out of compliance with the GPL, because most of them don't provide the exact files (namely config.h) that were used to build the projects in their source distributions.

Continuing, the GPL itself is unenforceable unless you sign all of your rights over to a single entity.  This text comes straight from the Free Software Foundation's website, where they explain why you have to sign over all your copyrights to them to participate in any GNU projects.  The copyright is unenforceable otherwise, because every party that contributed even a single line of code to the project is involved in any violation, you have to be able to identify which developers own the copyright on which code, etc.  

But hardly any projects outside of the FSF do this on their GPL projects.

Again, FSF says the license is unenforceable on their on GNU software if they don't obtain the sign offs.

And this is in addition to it extending copyright over code that comes into contact with it, etc. in ways that are inconvenient to a great many types of projects.

Software patents have no place -- and I'll readily agree with that.  You can't patent a mathmatical equation, and all computer programs are just very large math problems written in a different notation.  They are inherently not patentable.

Copyright offers protection, but copyrighted material has always come with a EULA.

Pick up the book of your choice, find the copyright notice:
(C) Copyright xxxx,xxxx-xxxx.  Name of Author.  ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
Unauthorized duplication, etc. etc. etc. is prohibited.

Yes, it's short and sweet.  And yes, its absolutely necessary to protect their intrests.  Any book publisher could run copies of any book without copyright there, at which point people who are writing books of great social or technical value, or simply of great entertainment value, would be unable to make money.  Publisher B would undercut Publisher A, because they have no investment in the content.

That's what copyright is there for.

The EULA's have been there since day one, also; again, originally they were short and sweet.

What is causing EULA's and DRM to become so important to the industry is the number of users who don't care about violating copyright.

The Computer Games industry tried several times during the 80's and 90's not including opressive copyrights, with the same results each time -- widespread disregard for their investment in creating media and code for the games, and wholesale violation of their license agreements.

This is why Microsoft, Valve and others are moving to concepts where you have an account with them, and download program code and media as needed.  The assumption that they are making is that the use of a central server ensures that you are in compliance with the license.

You can complain about it as much as you want, etc. but the users who were wholesale violating copyright laws are the people who brought the EULA's down on the rest of you.

People buying Halflife Platinum and installing Halflife by itself on one computer, and counterstrike by itself on another, and not noticing the fact that counterstrike does not function without halflife because the installer automatically covered for it.

You want DRM to go away?  You want EULA's to go away?

Quit treating college students as heros for duplicating media illegally.  The RIAA is trying to defend their constitutional and legal right to control a particular recording.

The students are welcome under copyright laws to sing a britney spears or whatever song themselves, to record that song, and to distribute it for free.  They are welcome to perform it themselves.

The issue is the original artist and the agents they have contracted with have a right to the original recording.  The original software developer has a right to the software they developed, etc.

As long as a small percentage of users through ignorance, spite or pure greed continue to try to violate the original author's rights to their original content, you'll have problems.

Also, for the vast majority of users, shrinkwrapped software with major version numbers easily identified is critical.

Alot of Linux/Unix people will sing "oh I love the GPL, software is free, etc."

However, what they forget is most of the population cannot build from source, and most of the population doesn't understand the ramifications of copying a GPLed program to their friend, neighbor, etc.  Heck, most of the Linux community doesn't, based on the wholesale violation of the GPL by major distributions of the OS.

The easiest way to provide support to an army of people with intelligence only slightly higher than a lobotomized chimpanzee is boxed software with known characteristics.  You want the responsible party clearly identified, and you sure as heck don't want any third party modifying it.

If the source code for Internet Explorer were as readily available as the source for FireFox, the spyware vendors, etc. would have a field day.  

And not because the code is any more poorly written -- both IE and Mozilla derive from Mosaic.  The issue is that everyone and their brother would be packaging "IE but better" and it would be impossible to know who was fixing what, and it would be impossible to distribute fixes.

You can see this with the huge number of Gecko based browsers.  FireFox 1.03 is coming out to fix a GIF buffer overrun -- how many other gecko based browsers have the bug?

Even on Linux, 2.6.x between two vendors can have totally different bug fixes; it's very difficult to deal with end user problems when you cannot identify their software environment accurately.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Wrong?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#21)
by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 08:48:30 PM PDT

An anonymous coward writes, "The publishers are strugling [sic] with how to get end-users to understand that having two copies of a program running at the same time is wrong."

If they're having to try so hard to convince people that it is, might that be because ... it isn't? (I'm not claiming it's not [i]illegal[/i] mind you, just that maybe it's not [i]wrong[/i]. Saying the earth went around the sun used to be illegal, but nobody in their right mind would claim that it is, or ever was, wrong.)

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



What a tangled post of inaccurate logic![ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#22)
by ekuns on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 09:31:34 PM PDT

By giving a friend a copy of any GPL program, you yourself are bound to provide them with source code for 3 years, as many times as they ask, whenever they ask, for not more than the cost of media and a reasonable handling fee.

Wow, sorry, but no. Check out http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html section 3c.

most Linux distributions are out of compliance with the GPL, because most of them don't provide the exact files (namely config.h) that were used to build the projects in their source distributions.

That is simply not true. Especially, any RPM based Linux distribution can be built simply from the SRPM files.

Continuing, the GPL itself is unenforceable unless you sign all of your rights over to a single entity.

Wrong again. Check out http://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-assign.html and see that assignment makes it easier to defend the copyright on GPL'd code, but it is not a requirement of the GPL itself.

Copyright offers protection, but copyrighted material has always come with a EULA.

Wrong again. The copyright notice is NOT a EULA. It is not a license. It is not a contract. It simply notifies the reader that the work is copyrighted and by whom. In fact, since the US adopted the European Berne copyright convention, a copyright notice has not even been required on a work, its presence simply helps defend the work's copyright in a lawsuit. The full strength of copyright law applies even if the notice is not present. Copyright exists on every work that is not in the public domain, and the absense of a copyright notice does not mean a work is in the public domain.

Quit treating college students as heros for duplicating media illegally. The RIAA is trying to defend their constitutional and legal right to control a particular recording.

Is anyone here treating college students as heros for breaking the law? I don't really think so. Also, the RIAA is trying to do much more so than you state above. The RIAA is trying to redefine "fair use" to the point of near extinction. Copyright addresses the act of making a copy. The RIAA is trying to control more than the act of making a copy.

The students are welcome under copyright laws to sing a britney spears or whatever song themselves, to record that song, and to distribute it for free. They are welcome to perform it themselves.

Wrong again!!! If you re-record another artist's song, you are required to pay a fee for the use of the copyrighted work. And any "public performance" is also subject to fees for use of the work. Private performances, however, fall under "fair use." However, ask anyone who has ever done a public performance of the happy birthday song if what you said above is accurate.

As long as a small percentage of users through ignorance, spite or pure greed continue to try to violate the original author's rights to their original content, you'll have problems.

I disagree with this one. As long as the percentage of illegal users is small, the problem is not a big one. (It's still wrong.) The problem with illegal use of copyrighted music is that the percentage of users breaking the law is large, not small.

If the source code for Internet Explorer were as readily available as the source for FireFox, the spyware vendors, etc. would have a field day.
And not because the code is any more poorly written -- both IE and Mozilla derive from Mosaic.

Now THAT is a funny one! Yes, both derive from Mosaic originally, but you must actually understand that the Mosaic source code -- to the degree that any is still present today in either product -- is a small fraction of the total source code. The presence or absense of Mosaic code today has got to be a non-issue regarding security.



[ Parent | Reply to This ]


A few comments on EULA[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#24)
by Jarulf on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 11:32:11 PM PDT

Just a few comments not allready addressed in the other excellent reply.

>What is causing EULA's and DRM to become so
>important to the industry is the number of users
>who don't care about violating copyright.

I can not see how EULAs in any way cure or help combat people not caring about copyright. Copyright applies regardless of if you add on a EULA or not. Actually, EULA has very little at all to do with copyright. It seldom (and most not at all) for example grant you any extra right of those the copyright law grants the copyright holder as exclusive.

>The Computer Games industry tried several times
>during the 80's and 90's not including opressive
>copyrights, with the same results each time --
>widespread disregard for their investment in
>creating media and code for the games, and
>wholesale violation of their license agreements.

You are confusing copyright with EULA and other contracts. Copyright ALWAYS apply, it can't be modified or changed by the Computer game industry. Are you saying that they, during the 80'2 and 90'2 actually tried to give up some of their exclusive rights??? Or are you refering to the fact that they did not try to add a whole lot of OTHER (non copyright related) restrictions on use of their program? License agreements are not copyright you know.

And if you really want to look at it more in detail, some of the, in my opinion, more common reasons people don't respect the EULA is in the way they are conducted, many times not conforming to the law on how to set up contracts regulating sales and so on. How, at least today, a typical EULA has SO many sections in it that actually is in complete contradiction to the law and would not have a chance to stand, except for perhaps in a few selected countries.

>You can complain about it as much as you want,
>etc. but the users who were wholesale violating
>copyright laws are the people who brought the
>EULA's down on the rest of you.

So, how, if at all, does EULA prevent or help prevent copyright violation? Those very same persons still violate copyright just as much.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



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