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Promise of Lifetime Service Isn't Sirius

By Ed Foster, Section The Gripelog
Posted on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 12:27:12 AM PDT

We already know how some manufacturers think a lifetime warranty is one that's only good for the lifetime of the product, not the customer. A similar word game is being played by the Sirius satellite radio service which, in its fine print, says its "lifetime" service only lasts for the lifetime of the customer's Sirius radio receiver itself.


A reader who had paid $500 for what was advertised as a "lifetime of music for your radio" recently found out just how literally Sirius means that. "My wife and I were looking at possibly getting a smaller receiver and I wanted to see how I could transfer the lifetime service to the new radio," he wrote. "That's when I found out that what I'd paid for was the service for the lifetime of the satellite receiver, not my lifetime. Sirius said I would have known this if I had read paragraph 5 (C)(4) of their terms and conditions:"

Transfer Fee: If you wish to transfer your Subscription to a different Sirius Receiver during the term of a prepaid subscription or committed subscription period, we may charge you a transfer fee of up to $75.00. You may not transfer a lifetime Subscription to a different Sirius Receiver.

At the time he purchased the service, the reader says there was no other indication of the lifetime subscription not being transferable to another satellite receiver. "Nowhere was there a noticeable disclaimer advising you of the limitations of 'lifetime' service," he wrote. "You either had to have previous knowledge or have read and understood that paragraph in the terms and conditions. How hard would it have been for Sirius to have an asterisk in their advertising indicating the limits of the subscription?"

The reader can continue to use his original satellite receiver, of course, but it bothers him that he's going to be stuck with it as the technology improves. "It may turn out that the thing will outlive me, but in any case I thought I was purchasing for my lifetime," he wrote. "You cannot upgrade to a newer receiver, and if your radio breaks after the manufacturer's warranty on the product ends, you will have paid a lifetime for only one year. Dealing with Sirius has not been a joy. They laughed at the fact that I didn't read the fine print and that I didn't know that the 'lifetime' subscription was only for my receiver and not myself."

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Promise of Lifetime Service Isn't Sirius | 184 comments (184 topical) | Post A Comment
Well, forget Sirius then[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#1)
by Anonymous User on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 04:48:49 AM PDT

I was considering getting a satellite radio and going with Sirius, but after hearing about this crock of crap... I'll go XM when I finally break down and try satellite radio...

[ Reply to This ]


Tivo isn't any different[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#29)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 04:55:37 PM PDT

Tivo has the same racket going. The fee for lifetime service covers the lifetime of the Tivo unit, not your lifetime. And it has the same detrimental effect in that users won't upgrade to newer technology. Tivo ran a promotion for awhile where for a limited time, owners of a Tivo Series 1 could upgrade to a Tivo Series 2 and transfer their lifetime service for free. I immediately upgraded. As for Sirus, I've been thinking of which satellite provider to use. Guess Sirus is out. Skyroom Ron

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


At least Tivo wanred me about the lifetime sub[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#49)
by ekuns on Sun Apr 03, 2005 at 08:41:52 AM PDT

When I purchased my Tivo unit, the folks in the store or maybe a Tivo flier in the store let me know that "lifetime" was "lifetime of the unit."  Also, the lifetime sub was only $250 instead of $400.  I am OK with a "lifetime == lifetime of the unit" choice when the distinction is made clear.

I chose not to buy the lifetime subscription, but at lesat I knew what I would be buying if I did get it.


[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Tivo fair[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#51)
by kevin on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 08:50:42 PM PDT

I agree, when I bought my Tivo they were very clear that lifetime was for the lifetime of the device.  I had no illusions to what I was buying.

Additionally they ran a special offering to move a lifetime purchased for a Series 1 to a Series 2 purchased from Tivo.

I paid a $199 for my lifetime, 4 years ago.  At the monthly rate I'm making a profit on my purchase. And I'm very happy about it.

Tivo will move the lifetime to a new device if the old one is repaced by repair (not sure if this is under warranty only, when my series 1 was replaced by Tivo it was still under warranty.)

Finally, having the lifetime go with a device means you can sell that device and the lifetime goes with it.  EBay prices on Tivo's with lifetime on them sell for much more than those without.

I say Sirius is decieving by not making the limitation more clear, but for my Tivo it's turned into an advantage.

Kevin


[ Parent | Reply to This ]



can change rec'vrs[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#59)
by informer on Thu May 05, 2005 at 04:10:47 PM PDT

http://www.sirius.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=Sirius/CachedPage&c=Page&cid=1019257316 747 4. Transfer Fee: If you wish to transfer your Subscription to a different SIRIUS Receiver during the term of a prepaid subscription or committed subscription period, we may charge you a transfer fee of up to $75.00. You may only transfer a lifetime Subscription to a different SIRIUS Receiver a maximum of three times.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


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[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Greed and the Almighty Dollar[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#2)
by Anonymous User on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 04:49:16 AM PDT

This is another example of how corporations plays word games to squeeze every dollar from honest folks. Corporations continue to take "buyer beware" to lower and more devious, technically-worded levels. The technicalities and implications of the quoted paragraph are so subtle and nuanced, a very large portion of "lifetime" purchasers would not see the trap set by Sirius until it is too late. Again, the only solution is to make this deception widely known and vote with your wallet.

[ Reply to This ]


Too good to be true...[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#3)
by mhkohne on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 05:37:45 AM PDT

I have to wonder: how did the poster think a company was going to make money on his lifetime sub, if it didn't have a limit somewhere? When I heard about lifetime subs for Tivo, my first thought was 'so how the heck do they make a buck?'. Further research showed the same deal: it's for the lifetime of the gadget, NOT the user. I assume Replay does the same thing, and I would imaging that XM (if they have such a deal) is also the same.

I'm not going to defend this practice (I think an easily readable description of the service should be provided up front!), but I will say that "Anything which seems too good to be true, probably is". Lifetime service? Frankly, it's too good to be true (especially for these guys: they have a LOT of content to pay for). So looking for the catch is something you should be doing.
Michael Kohne
[ Reply to This ]



Re: Too Good to be true[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#5)
by Anonymous User on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 07:53:12 AM PDT

I agree that some things may sound too good to be true. However, there are those of us who remember the days when lifetime meant lifetime. Craftsman tools for instance. (Please avoid the temptation to get sidetracked on my choice of manufacturers). Why would any sane person pay a large fee upfront for a "lifetime" service that is linked to a piece of fragile electronics that may last only one day past the manufacturer's warranty. The total spent in monthly subscritption fees for the warranty period pales in comparison to the large sum of money spent up front for the "lifetime" service. That next day (after the end of the warranty period) is VERY expensive should the unit fail. (Not an unusual occurence these days). Heck, the hardware could become obselete in very short order (I know that would NEVER happen in the electronics industry). My point is that it is not unreasonable to interpret "lifetime" as lifetime of the account when considering an account based on a service rather than a piece of hardware. Sirius would still make money selling new units to that customer should technology change significantly. Now, they simply have a disgruntled customer and bad press.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Craftsman tools are STILL lifetime warranty[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#45)
by Anonymous User on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 09:15:45 AM PDT

As far as I can tell, the lifetime is the lifetime of Sears, not just the tool or the purchaser of the tool. Take a broken Craftsman HAND tool back to any sears store and in my experience they will replace it with a brand new item on-the-spot, no proof required showing you are the original purchaser. Sorry if this is a sidetrack over your choice of vendors, but I think it only fair to point out that not only did Craftsman once guarantee tools for your lifetime, but they still do.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Wonder no more...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#11)
by Anonymous User on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 09:00:32 PM PDT

"I have to wonder: how did the poster think a company was going to make money on his lifetime sub, if it didn't have a limit somewhere?" Because they were paying a huge amount up front -- $500! -- that's how.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


But profit isn't the point here[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#13)
by foxyshadis1 on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 09:11:01 PM PDT

You've got your idea twisted. This is a company getting off the ground, not a company well established and with a large war chest. It's common practice to offer lifetime or permanent deals with early adopters who throw in their money at the time the company needs every cent most, presuming they'll lose interest or the company will recoup it with later revenues that they'll only see if they survive. It's not as common to my knowledge to qualify the "lifetime" so shadily, usually they bend over backwards at this stage, but I guess not here.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Re: Too good to be true[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#38)
by Anonymous User on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 01:29:00 PM PDT

True "lifetime" (i.e., life of the consumer) deals are available for organization memberships, some magazine subscriptions, and various other things, so why not for a subscription to a radio service? This is how the term is normally used in English and vendors shouldn't be allowed to get away with pretending otherwise. (If it means "life of the product" that's what it should say, and in any case it should make clear what rules apply if the purchaser isn't an individual.)

Companies offer true "lifetime" contracts either as a way of raising needed funds up front or (in the case of organizations) with the intent to invest the one-time fee and use the investment income to pay for the service. (There are even some "perpetual" offers. TIME magazine, I believe, sold a few never-ending subscriptions early in its existence; they can be and have been inherited. Likewise, ownership of a stock or real property is in theory perpetual.)

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Similar situation with TIVO, and also in reverse![ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#4)
by talmy on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 07:13:08 AM PDT

We bought a TIVO (standalone) and purchased the "lifetime" for the unit -- it was advertised as such. Shortly thereafter my parents bought a TIVO (for DirectTV) with "lifetime". My parents moved to a location where they couldn't use sat and cable was provided free so I offered to swap. Turns out that DirectTV had just bought all the rights to the DirectTV TIVO and changed the terms so "lifetime" was for the account. So they had my TIVO which was still free, but I had there TIVO and now had to pay monthly even though it was "lifetime". About a year later they changed their policy (thanks no doubt to people like me who complained) and made the "lifetime" transferrable for the unit. FWIW, DirectTV doesn't offer lifetime subscriptions anymore.

[ Reply to This ]


Scary[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#15)
by Jarulf on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 11:31:54 PM PDT

>Turns out that DirectTV had just bought all the >rights to the DirectTV TIVO and changed the >terms so "lifetime" was for the account. So they sold something with "lifetime", then changed it to mean something else? THAT is what I call scary stuff. I would even question if one can do that. If possible, what is next? Everyone selling stuff will just afterwards change it to mean, "yours for a minute, no we take it back, sorry, change of terms, want to buy lifetime next, it lasts 5 minutes"

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Life time subscriber[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#6)
by Anonymous User on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 10:25:00 AM PDT

I have to say, They must have changed the notice due to some previous complaints. I thought it was a great deal too, When I went to subscribe, my last screeen before accepting, clearly stated it was for the lifetime of the unit. It also is only for that unit. You cannot add an additional unit. I paused. I did my research comparing cost and projected lifetime of the portable. I ended up and bought it. The price was $500. At $15. a month for a normal subcription and considering the one year replacement warranty and a projected life of a unit of 4 years. I figured the unit will be comparible to a monthly bill I do not have to worry about. BUT, there are dangers to this logic. If Sirius does go belly up between now and 2008 I am screwed in direct proportion to the duration of use.

[ Reply to This ]


Alternate music sources[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#7)
by Anonymous User on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 02:37:58 PM PDT

Every time I think about going the satellite radio route, I remember that I can get music from Shoutcast, burn it to CD, and listen to the resulting MP3s in my car for 10-12 hours per disc. Fortunately, it's still legal to record public broadcasts for your own later enjoyment...

[ Reply to This ]


Huh?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#8)
by Anonymous User on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 02:42:17 PM PDT

It says plain as day on Sirius.com that it is lifetime of the receiver, I don't know how they could spell it out any plainer. http://www.sirius.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=Sirius/Page&c=Page&cid=1065475754240&am p;

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Plain as day?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#10)
by Anonymous User on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 07:34:45 PM PDT

The link takes us to the page describing subscription plans.  In big, capitalized letters we have:

"GO ON AND ON AND ON AND ON"

and

"NEVER PAY ANOTHER BILL"

Finally, in the smaller plain text, we have:

"Subscribe for the lifetime of your radio! Yes really, we're not kidding. Pay $499.99 once, forget about bills altogether, and enjoy SIRIUS for a long, long time to come..."

Did they say it was for the lifetime of the receiver?  Yes.  Was it plain as day?  No - the information provide is contractictory.  Could they have spelt it out any plainer?  Absolutely yes.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



And...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#14)
by Jarulf on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 11:28:29 PM PDT

they even continue on to say: "...and enjoy SIRIUS for a long, long time to come." I guess their definition of long, long is a bit different from others. Seems to mean, if you are lucky with your reciver and if it is not an old one that can break soon, then it can perhaps be quite long.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Spellin' it out.[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#39)
by Anonymous User on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 02:23:59 PM PDT

In fact they DID spell it out plainer in the past. Here's a snapshot of their webpage from 12/8/03:

Clicky

"Limited Time Offer - Through January 31, 2004 $399.99 gets you SIRIUS for the life of your satellite radio."

And that's it. Nice and clear. I wonder why they changed it.


[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Seems pretty clear to me[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#9)
by Anonymous User on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 04:48:41 PM PDT

Folks like this that cry foul are simply looking for someone else to blame for not doing their home-work. I too considered the Sirius Lifetime Plan, but after reading what it said on their web site and knowing how much I like the latest and greatest, I knew it wasn't for me. It clearly says the Lifetime plan is for the life of the tuner and you'd have to be a total freaking moron not to see that. Quit trying to blame SIRIUS for your own ignorance.

[ Reply to This ]


doing homework - IMPOSSIBLE ![ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#47)
by aoz on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 01:22:33 PM PDT

OK, I'm a guy who DOES his homework. I've been on-line over FOUR HOURS trying to find which cell phone plan to get - I challenge you to find info, EASILY, without signing up first as an account, agreeing to some arcane web site agreement, etc... (not directly related to satellite radio, but same thing; things are buried in fine print) I don't have that kind of time to waste !. These companies are taking advantage of that. My only recource is to NOT buy the product (I currently don't), but it is a royal pain. We, as customers, should NOT have to wade through pages and pages of material to find a short concise description of what we're getting.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


people who think sirius is correct are wrong[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#61)
by Anonymous User on Thu Dec 15, 2005 at 04:50:52 AM PDT

Caveat Emptor? Sure! But that does not preclude honesty on the part of the company. If you have to hunt for the whole truth(and make no mistake about it, you do) then the company is being deceitful. Period. End of discussion.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


They changed the language[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#12)
by Anonymous User on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 09:04:29 PM PDT

They changed the language of their site to make it clearer, probably after complaints. The original complainer should probably take Sirius to small claims court over the $500, or even press criminal charges. What happened to them was deceptive and misleading advertising; arguably fraud. The last time I checked those are illegal.

[ Reply to This ]


C'mon![ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#16)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 05:16:04 AM PDT

Why can't people accept responsibility for their own actions anymore? The description on SIRIUS' web site about the lifetime plan has always stated it was for the liftime of the reciever, not the subscriber. It's no one's fault but your own if you didn't read the entilre agreement. Stop blaming sirius and stop suggesting people sue, that's a case they would not win.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Re: C'mon[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#17)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 09:41:37 AM PDT

I agree 100%. Why can't Sirius take responsibility for their deceptive actions, instead of blaming the customer? If there is any truth to the previous post that they have updated their web site for clarity, it is becoming obvious that they were deceptive in their original advertising. You are right about responsibiilty for your actions - however, that knife cuts both ways and includes corporations like Sirius. The whole point to many of the posts at this website is that corporations are taking advantage of customers through legalise and techno-jargon. After the customer becomes aware of the trap set by the corporation, self-righteous folks then dismiss the buyer as a moron who did not read the entire agreement. That is patently unfair. Obviously, Sirius clarified its website (if the previous posts are true). Why did they hide the details to begin with?

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Re: C'Mon[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#23)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 02:12:12 PM PDT

Hey look, you don't know that they changed the site but you're making judgements based on that they did anyhow? That sounds fairly stupid to me. I own a Sirius receiver. I looked at the lifetime option. When I went to activate my account over the phone the rep spelled it out in great detail with no hedging and no attempt at hiding it. Because of his input I chose to pay for a year at a time. So stop whining about the big bad company and take responsibility for what happens to you. I love my Sirius and wouldn't trade it for the world.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


"Buyer Beware" is wrong[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#40)
by Anonymous User on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 02:52:53 PM PDT

There's another major problem with those who adopt the attitude that the onus should be on the buyer to beware, and not on the seller to be honest and the legal system to sort it all out. Buyer beware, when put into practise, translates into higher transaction costs -- the extra buyer research, or the consequences of not doing that research. Higher transaction costs in turn translate into lower sales volume, so it's not only the buyer who ends up getting hurt, and on a large enough scale the whole economy slows down, which can bring on a recession.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Changed it, huh?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#26)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 03:20:52 PM PDT

If they just changed the web site, then how did I find out about the policy a year ago when I explored this option? That's right, I read the web site.

But some people can't be bothered, I guess.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Lifetime has always been nebulous[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#18)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 11:59:35 AM PDT

When I was a little kid (I'm in my late 50's now), I remember seeing a "lifetime" something or other and wondering what that meant. I'm sure that the word "lifetime" is supposed to convey some sense of "very long" to the customer, but since most companies think of it as being quite short, I'm very surprised when someone thinks that it's "his lifetime".

[ Reply to This ]


TV[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#19)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 01:05:17 PM PDT

I thought Lifetime was television for women? Sorry, couldn't resist... :)

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Lifetime did mean that once.[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#22)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 02:10:12 PM PDT

I'm still somewhat annoyed. Back in the '60s, my parents were offered the choice of annual subscription to National Geographic (for me), or to pay $250 for a lifetime subscription. Yes, it really would have been for the length of my life. Since I'm still alive, and have been paying full annual dues since the '60s, that would have been one sweet deal. Of course, they didn't take the offer. $250 was "just too much money to spend" at that time. :-( -S

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Lifetime still means lifetime to some[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#33)
by Anonymous User on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 09:30:33 AM PDT

Add Nuts & Volts magazine & ARRL org to the list of entities that understand the meaning of the word lifetime.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Inflation is a bitch.[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#36)
by foxyshadis1 on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 12:13:10 PM PDT

Considering that $250 then was worth almost $1500 now, it's not so surprising, especially given how fickle kids are. Think about how carefully you'd weigh spending $1500 vs. $40 a year on your kid.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Sorry - I side with Sirius[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#20)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 02:02:05 PM PDT

I've had Sirius for over a year (and am very happy with the service, by the way) and considered the "lifetime" option when I first set up my subscription. It was very clear to me then when I looked into it that it applied to the receiver. Don't blame Sirius for your lack of paying attention.

[ Reply to This ]


Microcosm of humanity[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#24)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 02:14:01 PM PDT

This little debate underscores many issues. Is it "Whatever you can get away with" or "Fair value for your business?" Business law is clearly the former. Business ethics (oxymoron?) is clearly the latter. I would love to have those of you who defend this vendor do business with me sometime when I knew you were coming. I hardly think you be saying "Gee whiz, I should have read that linkto-the-link-to-the-link" fine print. on the fine print" You'd be screaming like stuck pigs. Accepting duplicitious behavior should never be acceptable. BTW, I was debating with whom to go for sat-rad -- XM sounds like they just won a customer.

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Is this really new? I don't think so...[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#21)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 02:08:52 PM PDT

Is this practice of "lifetime" meaning lifetime of the product, not the user, new? I don't think so.

When I got new tires on my car, I got lifetime rotation and balance. That's for the lifetime of the tires, not me, not even the car! And, I can't transfer that warranty to anyone.

I then got lifetime alignment (Which is why I always go to Firestone for repairs - go figure! :-) ). That alignment is for the lifetime of the car, not me, and it is not transferable. If, after getting the lifetime alignment, I were to drive out of Firestone and total the car (and survive), I would be out one lifetime alignment.

That said, if that hypothetical did happen, Firestone would probably be willing to work with me and transfer it to a new car. After all, they want to keep me as a customer!

So, you pay $500 for lifetime of the tuner reception. Sirius now costs about $10/month (last I checked). That price could go up (think cable). But let's assume it doesn't. If your tuner lasts 51 months (4 years and 3 months), the lifetime thing has paid for itself. So, if you think you will be keeping the tuner for 4.25 years or more, then the lifetime tuner subscription is worth it. If not, then pay by the month.

It does appear, however, that Sirius customer service could have handled this better than they did.

I think the buyer should have been more aware, or at least asked the question "Lifetime of what?" It seems to me that this is pretty normal - lifetime doesn't necessarily mean a PERSON'S lifetime. I also think that the marketing practices are somewhat deceptive, and could be clearer.

I guess it underscores the need for caveat emptor!

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Sirius costs[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#34)
by Anonymous User on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 09:34:23 AM PDT

Sirius has been $12/mo for some time now. Recently, XM decided to raise their rates to match that. When that happened, I got a letter offering me the option to pay the current $10/mo in advance for 1, 2 or 3 years. I currently have them on a quarterly plan with no automatic renewal. Mainly because I still haven't decided if it's worth paying $10/month to listen to the radio in my truck. I might go with the 1 year plan; I'm not sure. But there's no way I would go with 2 or 3 year plans. I may not have the truck that long and there's no guarantee my next vehicle will have an XM radio. I sure wouldn't have it in my house. Too many other options that I'm already paying for plus I'd have to buy additional hardware and pay an additional fee. What a rip-off.

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Call the DoJ[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#41)
by Anonymous User on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 03:04:58 PM PDT

"Sirius has been $12/mo for some time now. Recently, XM decided to raise their rates to match that."

Can you spell "price-fixing"? I don't know, but I sure can smell it. Independently competing vendors sometimes all lower prices at roughly the same time, but they don't all raise prices at roughly the same time, unless they have a common expense that went up. Once a satellite provider has launched a satellite that does what it is programmed to do with no further human assistance, the only major expense has been paid until and unless the satellite fails or they want to add more for larger areas of coverage. That leaves piping data to the satellite and managing user accounts, as well as administrative fees. Their other expenses are copyright clearance, office supplies, and electricity, basically. The costs in those generic categories won't have all gone up uniformly; indeed, the current fad of hydro deregulation means electric prices are more variable than before (and so, unfortunately, is quality, as the big August blackout in the Northeast showed. Several of the places the Erie Loop, where the problem started, passed through had recently deregulated power utilities, including the province of Ontario, which was hit hard by the blackout; and the brownouts, blackouts, and wildly fluctuating prices in California since they deregulated it there are by now well known and reminiscent of the price fluctuations and occasional shortages we've all enjoyed in the fuel oil market for decades).


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Sure they do[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#46)
by dliesse on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 09:32:46 AM PDT

Competitors most certainly do raise prices in unison -- just look at the airlines. In the business world, pricing has nothing to do with costs (beyond making sure they're covered) and everything with maximizing return. And until someone convinces the business world that the Business Roundtable is not God's proxy, that's the way things will generally be.

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Huh?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#48)
by Anonymous User on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 09:36:50 PM PDT

If two companies are truly competing and their costs have not gone up and one of them raises their price, the other one's logical course of action is to sit at the lower price and grab all the other guy's customers. If they both raise their prices simultaneously, without any jump in the expenses of doing whatever type of business it is they're doing, it suggests they have some under the table agreement to squeeze the market for all they can rather than actually compete on price. That's called "price-fixing".

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Price-fixing[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#50)