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An Evergreen Brink's Heist

By Ed Foster, Section Columns
Posted on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 08:01:31 AM PDT

How far can a vendor go in enforcing unfair contract terms? I don't know, but it appears that at least one company, Brink's Home Security, thinks it can use the "evergreen clause" in its contract to financially punish any customer who threatens to go to a competitor.


A Florida resident whom I will dub Mrs. House has been a customer of Brink's home monitoring service for over eight years. "I think I had called them four or five times total over the years, mainly just to check the system," Mrs. House says about the service, for which she paid $30 a month. "But the last time I called it was because we were having a lot of false alarms." She was informed the alarm system wiring for some of her window screens had gone bad and would require some expensive re-wiring not covered by her "Platinum Service" maintenance plan.

As she and her husband had been planning on re-modeling their home anyway, they ultimately decided to cancel the service. "When I called to cancel, that's when I found out about Brink's 'evergreen clause,'" Mrs. House says. The contract she had signed eight years ago was, as she knew, a three-year commitment that she had long since fulfilled. What she had not realized was that the contract also said that:

"Thereafter, this agreement will automatically continue for successive one year renewal terms unless you or Brinks give written notice of cancellation to the other at least 60 days before the initial or renewal term ends."

Since Mrs. House was just a few months into her ninth year of service when she cancelled, Brink's was therefore claiming she owed them for another nine month's of service. "Right after I called, the local dealer came and collected all their equipment, so we could no longer use the system even if we wanted to," she says. "Then almost immediately I received a cancellation notice with an invoice for $269.05 and a remittance form and envelope."

Mrs. House found it hard to believe that Brinks could or would charge a consumer for nine months of service that weren't going to be used, and she started searching for help. Although home security systems are hardly one of my regular topics, I have been known to write about evergreen clauses on occasion. So she eventually found the GripeLog and messaged me about her predicament. While it certainly seemed very wrong for her to have to pay Brink's invoice, I certainly couldn't advise her about what she could do about any legal or collections actions Brink's might take if she didn't pay up. But if nothing else, I felt I could at least confirm with Brinks what their enforcement policy is in regards to their evergreen clause.

Brink's answer surprised me. "The annual renewal and 60-day notice is on the front page of the agreement, and we regard it as a valid part of the contract," a Brink's spokesman told me after checking the details of their policy. "But we are reasonable about this stuff, and in a situation like you describe, the customer should have a dialogue with our customer affairs staff and I'm sure they can work something out. Maybe we'll split the difference -- we don't want someone who has been a good customer for eight years to go away mad." What really surprised me though was the one area where he said they do strictly enforce the evergreen clause. "If she were going to a competitor, that's where the provision kicks in."

Why should it make a difference whether the customer was going to a competitor or not? It so happened that Mrs. House didn't install a rival system, because of her re-modeling, but how fair is it for any company to have that kind of a weapon to hold to a customer's head? If you don't like our service anymore, fine, but it will cost you extra to take your business elsewhere.

With Brink's it would also appear that even threatening to go to the competition is enough to invoke the full retribution of their evergreen clause. When Mrs. House called the number for customer affairs that I'd passed on from the Brink's spokesman, she was essentially told that a contract is a contract. "He just started reading me the clause from the contract I had signed," says Mrs. House, who then learned that her account file contained a note saying she had told her local Brink's dealer she was going to the competition. "I explained I was angry at the time about them trying to corner me into re-wiring the screens at an outrageous price. The customer affairs person said that he was sorry, but there was nothing he could do."

After I made a few more calls to the Brink's spokesman, the customer affairs folks got a little more reasonable. (I never actually identified her to Brink's, but by this time I think they had figured out which of their evergreen victims she was.) Early this week, she notified me she has received a new invoice from Brink's Home Security saying she owes nothing. But what if Mrs. House hadn't managed to find a journalist who believes evergreen clauses -- which, by the way, in at least some states are by law not enforceable in consumer contracts -- should be illegal everywhere?

There are those who will point out that Mrs. House did in fact sign a contract, so she should have known what it said. But even if you know the evergreen clause is there, what do you do if the day you decide you are no longer happy with the service happens to be 59 days before the next annual renewal kicks in? Must you pay for 14 months of service you don't use just because of bad timing? With Brink's at least, I guess what you do is not admit it if you're thinking about installing another company's system. But better yet, if you know that the evergreen clause is there, don't do business with that company in the first place.

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Display: Sort:
An Evergreen Brink's Heist | 91 comments (91 topical) | Post A Comment
Brink's Heist[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#1)
by Anonymous User on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 08:54:29 AM PDT

In my last job I was involved with many agreements that contained Evergreen clauses, and I was burned by them a few times. Finally I learned, if you can't avoid signing one then you simply MUST send a registered letter of cancellation (effective the ending date of the contract) as soon as the contract is formally executed. You need to include a letter stating that you intend to renew but the cancellation is merely a legal formality. Then put your copy of the letter and the return receipt into the Contract folder and give it all to Legal Affairs. This might not work for a consumer but it always worked for me in the business world.

[ Reply to This ]


Cancel at Time of Contract[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#2)
by sandygettings on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 09:08:03 AM PDT

I use the same technique as described above: sign the contract, and attach a letter that states your notice to cancel or re-negotiate at the end of the term of the contract. The seller will probably "lose" your letter, but keep a copy of the signed document on file.

Sales reps don't seem to mind, as they get their commission with the contract.

I haven't had to use this technique for consumer contracts, either, but my experience with litigation shows a strong advantage to the party with the best documentation.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Witholding Payment[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#48)
by Anonymous User on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 09:01:59 AM PDT

What happens when payment is witheld? Has anyone refused to pay when service is discontinued?

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


22[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#194)
by Anonymous User on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 06:50:22 AM PDT

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[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Brinks Broke Contract?[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#3)
by Anonymous User on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 09:37:51 AM PDT

I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me that by removing their equipment and withholding service, Brinks is in violation also. Mrs. House could argue they defrauded her by removing equipment when they knowingly were going to bill her while withholding service. Plus, how can they collect?

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How can they collect?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#22)
by Anonymous User on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 11:04:27 AM PDT

Well, first they can refer you to a collection agency. If you do not pay them, they put a ding against your credit rating for non-payment of a debt. Some could go so far as to attach your pay. You end up paying for the services of a lawyer and, even then, it may not get resolved in a timely fashion. Trust me, it gets real ugly. Also - to those who ask why one would sign such an agreement - most of these clauses are in very small print. And, while Brinks claims theirs is on the first page, most usually they are hidden away where one would not notice them. Most people do not read a contract - particularly multiple page documents - that thoroughly. Especially when there's a salesman trying to hurry them along. I know, shame on them. But that's human nature. Particularly when it seems like you're getting something good from an otherwise reputable company. I have even had sales people say that you can get a full refund if you're not satisfied and hand me a brochure alluding to the same, yet hand me a contract with an evergreen clause. So it's small wonder people get tricked.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Same contract / different treatment[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#4)
by Anonymous User on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 11:12:25 AM PDT

I have a system from ADT which had the same clause in the contract. It was two months into the new year when I decided to cancel the service because I installed DSL and didn't want to pay an $80 service call to get the system to dial in. I was very affraid they would hassle me but to my suprise they did not! Thanks ADT.

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I just decided against Brinks, thanks to you..[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#5)
by Anonymous User on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 02:07:17 PM PDT

The evergreen clause is ridiculous.  Nothing but a means of gouging people for another year.  I've been perusing various home alarms systems and just scratched Brinks off my short list.  I located a local vendor that doesn't require the evergreen clause.  Guess who gets my business?

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List of States[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#6)
by Anonymous User on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 03:08:55 PM PDT

Do you happen to have a list of the states that have outlawed Evergreen clauses?

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This is why....[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#7)
by Anonymous User on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 04:54:52 AM PDT

This kind of 'retributional' crap in the contracts and strong arm tactics is exactly why I will never use a 'big corporate' alarm/monitoring company. I still to local companies, they care alot more about their reputation and customers, and their service is just as good if not better than the big national-in-it-only-for-the-money-the-hell-with-the-customer organizations.

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Restraint of Trade[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#8)
by Anonymous User on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 06:42:53 PM PDT

What really surprised me though was the one area where he said they do strictly enforce the evergreen clause. "If she were going to a competitor, that's where the provision kicks in."

I too am very surprised that a Brink's spokesman would admit to a restraint of trade.

From the Department of Justice Antitrust Division website:

1 Sherman Act, 15 U.S.C. 1

Trusts, etc., in restraint of trade illegal; penalty

Every contract, combination in the form of trust or otherwise, or conspiracy, in restraint of trade or commerce among the several States, or with foreign nations, is declared to be illegal. Every person who shall make any contract or engage in any combination or conspiracy hereby declared to be illegal shall be deemed guilty of a felony, and, on conviction thereof, shall be punished by fine not exceeding $10,000,000 if a corporation, or, if any other person, $350,000, or by imprisonment not exceeding three years, or by both said punishments, in the discretion of the court.

Perhaps the Brink's spokesman mis-spoke or was confused about their corporate policy. Why don't you check back with them about that?



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Re: Restraint of Trade[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#9)
by Ed Foster on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 02:27:47 AM PDT

Thank you for the reference to the Sherman Act. I too was surprised that Brink's spokesman would so consistently suggest that they have the right to invoke their evergreen clause to keep customers from going to the competition. If that's not restraint of trade, what is?

Ed Foster



[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Dangerous line of inquiry[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#10)
by Anonymous User on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 06:50:58 AM PDT

The outcome of such a line of inquiry [vis a vis the Sherman act] can go two ways. 1) the company in question realizes that such a policy is a mistake and rescinds its evergreen policy or 2) in order to give the appearance that the evergreen policy is not about keeping people from going to the competition (what other reason is there for locking in people for successive 1 year periods?), the company institutes a draconian "no exceptions" evergreen policy and people like Mrs. House get no relief regardless of who calls. Which of the two do you think Brinks will choose?

I personally think evergreen clauses are an abomination -- thanks for publishing this article, Brinks drops off the short list of security vendors as I look into alarm systems.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Dangerous line of inquiry[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#11)
by Anonymous User on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 12:10:27 PM PDT

Brink's policy injures the market.

While you're looking for a security vendor that doesn't lock you into an abominable evergreen clause, those vendors must compete with Brink's. And Brink's profits from an anti-competitively enforced policy, harming the companies you want to do business with! As a result, you're going to pay a higher price for an alarm system from a vendor that doesn't have an evergreen clause--or even from a vendor that enforces its evergreen clause lawfully. Doesn't that rankle?

Or is that simple concept just too remote for you? Poor Mrs. House purchased protection from a company that looks like it's committing a felony... but you're warning that if the issue is brought up—giving Brink's a chance to explain—then the outfit will probably just retaliate against future protectees.



[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Dangerous line of inquiry[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#15)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 22, 2005 at 12:54:53 PM PDT

Nowhere did I disagree that Brinks is hurting the market and certainly Brinks policy rankles for more reasons than the fact they are hurting competition.

Frankly, there was no reason to be insulting. I fully understand the concept and issues vis a vis the noncompetitive nature of what Brinks is doing. My point was that unless there is a full scale effort to get Brinks brought up on felony charges, that by winning the battle for one customer, future customers are going to be harmed as Brinks regroups and avoids the appearance of impropriety by adopting and enforcing a draconian policy.

Realize also that venues such as GripeLine aren't the only places consumers complain. Word gets around pretty fast in a neighborhood or at the workplace when a customer feels they have been screwed by a vendor. Brinks may have lost more potential customers than they know when they have behaved in other cases as they did for the case cited here.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Brink's[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#12)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 22, 2005 at 11:30:08 AM PDT

At what point in our lives did companies stop selling on merit, and start selling and servicing with threats and trickery? I long to have back the days where the customer was always right, and you actually got what you paid for...

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Vote with your wallet[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#13)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 22, 2005 at 11:38:24 AM PDT

The way to deal with draconian policies like Brink's is very simple: take your business elsewhere. If enough people cancel their contracts at the end of the year and tell Brink's that their ridiculous evergreen policy is the reason, it will eventually sink into management's thick heads. They'll either drop the policy or go out of business (and good riddance!).

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evergreen clauses[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#14)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 22, 2005 at 11:46:26 AM PDT

One should always read commercial contracts...and simply stike out those parts of the contract you do not agree with. That is easy. Then if the company objects, that is the time to decide to accept or walk. EULAs are not negotiated contracts and all you have to do is send a letter notice to the manufacturer indicating that you are using the product but do not agree with the EULA provisions....and if the company has objections, they can send your money back and you will stop using the product. That shows good faith. I go to great lengths to avoid products that require on line validation to work.

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Brinks quality[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#16)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 22, 2005 at 01:36:10 PM PDT

Brinks must have had problems in the past or known they will have problems with their Evergreen clause.  They've already bought brinksucks.com.

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Evergreen or sap?[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#17)
by hellsop on Tue Mar 22, 2005 at 01:37:01 PM PDT

The real problem with this situation isn't, unfortunately, something as simple as an evergreen contract. Evergreen issues are generally made irrelevant by careful reviewing of contracts, methodical and careful decision-making (especially not storming out of a contract), and planning for a transition. This is all good IT and business practice. The true question is the one that started this whole mess: Why did a functioning system (the window sensor) fail, and why does it require extensive rewireing to fix instead of a simple part, when it had previously worked just fine for eight years? Would a consumer be expected to replace an automobile engine because a spark plug failed?

[ Reply to This ]


Another bad one[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#18)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 22, 2005 at 02:26:19 PM PDT

Our company has a contract with a vending machine service. The contract was originally for three years and had a auto-renewal clause 60 days prior to the end which renewed for another THREE YEARS! We were not aware of the evergreen clause and we by pure chance tried to cancel 45 days prior to the end of the original term. The owner of the vending service company, who just happens to be a lawyer (what does that say about the company?), said that he would be more than happy to take us to court if we tried to cancel! He even threatened to sue if we so much as told our employees not to use the machines! Needless to say, he got a registered cancelation letter the next day. Thankfully, our second three year term will be up at the end of next month. This kind of contract should be totaly illegal.

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Re: Another bad one[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#23)
by Anonymous User on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 11:32:27 AM PDT

Does putting out free snacks constitute telling your employees not to use the machines? Or relocating the machines to a utility closet or the basement? I would have had fun with that guy even if it cost a little money to do...

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No such thing as a "Standard Contract"[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#19)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 22, 2005 at 02:39:15 PM PDT

When I find such draconian clauses in a contract, I just line through them at the time I sign the contract which renders them invalid. I also initial and date the change and have the company rep do the same. Of course, the company rep says that it is their "Standard Contract" and I can't change it to which I reply "there's the door." If the company doesn't want to accept the contract as ammended, I just find another vendor.

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There are all kinds of contracts that do this[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#20)
by Anonymous User on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 06:07:56 AM PDT

Think leases on apartments, insurance policies, health club plans, even IRS flexible spending accounts. Some other providers charge disconnect or termination fees which amount to roughly the same thing (like utilities, cable tv, cell phones).

I don't see how you could get rid of the clause. Most of the ones I've seen indicate you are paying for a year of service at the beginning of the term and they are allowing you the convenience of monthly payments on your balance. When you cancel, you still owe them the money.

Seems reasonably fair to me - they are committing to have the resources you requested available to you for the next year. Maybe if you quit because of a problem with the service, you could argue you should get a refund because of unsatisfactory service, but if you quit because you want to go with a different company, they seem justified in asking for full payment of your remaining balance.

You just need to know what you're signing up for when you start paying people money.

The type that irritate me more are the direct mail and internet advertisements for free magazines or merchandise that start charging you some amount of money per month if you don't cancel in the first 30 days, and worst case, some of those may require you to pay for a year before you can cancel if you haven't canceled right away.



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Just goes to show...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#21)
by Anonymous User on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 07:24:31 AM PDT

That last just goes to show that you should never, ever, ever, ever take any spammer up on their offer. Ever.

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one thing[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#24)
by Anonymous User on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 11:36:07 AM PDT

If your bill states something like "Monthly Service" and does not show that you have a remaining balance for the rest of your year, they likely have invalidated their claims that you are paying out an up-front charge for a year. I don't know of many bills that come in like that, though I'm sure they do exist.

The best thing would be for people to realize they usually have a choice in the matter and to not use a vendor who chooses to employ such strongarm tactics.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



We had a similar situation with Home Team Security[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#25)
by babsbny on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 05:28:40 PM PDT

When we bought a Centex home several years ago we opted to go with the Centex Home Security which was renamed to Home Team. Well, when it came time for us to sell our house, because we moved to another town. They envoked the Evergreen clause. Had the new house we been in their service area they were willing out of the goodness of their heart to transferred that agreement to our new house, but as it was we ended up paying for 11 months of service for a house that wasn't ours. That was our first run in with the evergreen clause. Something I make very sure to look for before I sign anything these days.

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re: similar situation[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#26)
by foxyshadis1 on Thu Mar 24, 2005 at 03:10:14 AM PDT

I'm surprised you couldn't get that included on the home sale contract. At the very least it's worth negotiations with any potential buyer to pick up the slack, as they're going to be the ones using it. I know you can sometimes do that with other term service contracts.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Home Sale included[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#28)
by babsbny on Sat Mar 26, 2005 at 12:05:55 PM PDT

Problem was we, didn't know about that until after we were ready to close on selling the house. We closed very quickly, and since we were at that point out of town in another house. When we started to bring it up, it was our impression if we didn't the people were gonna walk away from the deal and we were really trying hard not to have two house notes. Did that once already. So I guess we could have been more sticklers for it, but we figured 11 months alarm was cheaper than two house notes.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Cancel up front[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#27)
by Anonymous User on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 07:29:39 PM PDT

I like the idea of canceling up front. Send a cancelation letter immedately but add the following: "Please cancel our contract effective xx/xx/xx. If you choose to continue to provide your service it will be billed at the contract monthly amount and can be cancelled by either party with 10 days notice." If you are sure they will lose your letter and you don't really care if they continue service you could even try: "If you choose to continue the service after the expiration of the contract it will be billed at 50% of the contract rate."

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I was ready to call Brinks...........[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#29)
by Anonymous User on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 06:00:43 AM PDT

Am I glad I read this! I was talking to my wife just this weekend about getting information on the Brink's system. Not going to happen now. Whew! Another close one. I'll look into ADT, but I'll be very careful before signing up. Thanks again.

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Amulated Momulated[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#30)
by Anonymous User on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 02:47:11 PM PDT

have you tried the Amulated Momulated rather than the Fromulated Momulated? Creamier, I believe.

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Evergreen Clause[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#31)
by shadaruiz on Sat Jun 11, 2005 at 04:27:25 PM PDT

I am having the same difficulty with Foodcraft a coffee vendor for our office. Due to poor service and lack of caring, I opted to find another vendor. When I called to cancel, never once did they ask why..then I was told that after reviewing our file, we had 9 more months to go on our service agreement on the coffee brewing equipment. When I said I was unaware of any such agreement (I have been in the office for over 1 1/2 years) they faxed me copies....sure enough someone signed an agreement dated 3/25/95 and it said that the agreement was for 12 months and subject to the renewal provisions on the reverse of the form. The reverse side stated that the agreement auto renewed yearly unless notification was made via registered mail prior to 30 days before the renewal date. Mind you, this is a form that is signed when the equipment is installed....apparently the office has used this vendor since at least 1990....I am trying to find a way out of this clause (I'm in California). Otherwise, I am stuck with a vendor I don't want for 9 more months and have to deal with the poor service and attitude.

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3 year contract[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#45)
by Anonymous User on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 10:04:37 AM PDT

I SIGN A CONTRACT FOR 3 YEARS FOR AN ALARM COMPANY. I WANT TO SWITCH TO A DIFFERENT COMPANY BUT I AM STILL UNDER CONTRACT FOR 11MONTHS. IS IT TRUE MY ALARM COMPANY CAN ONLY HOLD ME FOR 2 YEARS OF THE CONTRACT IN THE STATE OF CA.

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Safetouch gets you for two years[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#50)
by Anonymous User on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 03:06:23 PM PDT

I just got burned by them, but they are two years! There has to be a way out...

[ Reply to This ]


Another Protection One Story - $820.42 ![ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#51)
by jdickins on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 08:21:01 PM PDT

Oh boy! I had this problem in 1999 (continuing on through 2000) thirteen years after signing a contract with company A, bought out by company B, and finally bought out by Protection One. Protection One failed to provide their contracted service on an alarm. I cancelled. In turn, they charged me $689.43 (which became $820.42 with "fees") for service they didn't provide. They claimed "contract", but were never able to come up with a copy of that contract - a contract that didn't have an "assignment clause" in the first place. After a long ordeal, I got help from the Arizona Attorney General's office. Protection One sent a letter to the Attorney General (with no copy to me) saying the "account has been recalled from outside collections and the debt will be recorded as settled in full." The Attorney General's office wouldn't tell me if they had dealt with Protection One before, but I sure got the impression when they declined to answer that this was a common occurrence. Less than a month later, I was contacted by a second collection agency. Rather than try to deal with it, I turned that over to the Attorney General's office. I got a letter of apology from Protection One, the first communications from them other than bills in 16 months. It was signed by the "Executive Customer Relations Administrator" who invited me to contact him if I had further "questions", supplying only their main customer service number. I put up a web site detailing the whole ordeal, including copies of letters and documents. I received e-mail from time-to-time from others who were going through similar ordeals with Protection One and wanting help or suggestions. After a few years Protection One saw the web site and I received an e-mail from them requesting my account information so they could research my situation for their legal department. (They couldn't find it with all the information I put on the web?) Not wanting to again tangle with Protection One, I removed the site, leaving only a small shell in its place. Rather than providing superior service and keeping happy customers, Protection One is attempting to make money off unhappy customers who have received poor service and cancelled.

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WOW! I thought you were me![ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#54)
by Anonymous User on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 11:10:59 AM PDT

Same yrs, same timeframe, same company. And yes the Atty Gen'l (now Governor) shut Protection One down fast. Never let these pukes get away with rotten business practices. Make it very expensive for them to play games with you. That's what we pay taxes for, use your Atty General's office!

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#190)
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