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Unforgotten Thinkpad Password Costs $725

By Ed Foster, Section The Gripelog
Posted on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 11:54:40 PM PDT

Few items generate more complaints to the GripeLog than laptops. Just recently I wrote about an HP/Compaq customer whose laptop battery was left quite literally uncovered. And, by the way, I'm happy to report he now has his check from HP covering the cost of battery cover. Now comes one that involves a more significant hunk of change and a company that, as I've noted, we don't usually hear many negative things about in the GripeLog: IBM.


"In July of 2004 I bought my first Thinkpad," a reader recently wrote. "While it was not the most expensive Thinkpad made, it was still my Thinkpad. I knew IBM had a reputation for quality unrivaled in the Wintel world and rested comfortably with this knowledge. All was well until one cool morning when it appeared the CMOS battery died."

The reader had a bit of trouble finding the warranty support phone number for his laptop that he could get through on, but eventually found himself speaking to a support tech who sounded quite knowledgeable. "Good, at least IBM has quality staff to handle this isolated incident," he wrote. "I felt certain that I would soon be on my way to happiness again with my Thinkpad. We discussed the issue with the laptop no longer keeping time and he came to the same conclusion as did I that the CMOS battery was dead. No big deal -- he would send me a new one, as it was deemed user repairable by IBM and under my EasyServe warranty. He asked me a few questions about my shipping address and told me to just remove the memory access panel and replace the small battery when it arrived via UPS."

The reader, who in case you haven't guessed has mostly been an Apple customer historically, was quite pleasantly surprised to see the CMOS part show up the very next day. "It certainly looks like IBM has its act together, I thought," he wrote. "I open the box to find only a replacement CMOS battery and no instructions. No biggie, I have had my PowerBooks apart many times and they were simple to repair and this would be also. After all, the support tech had said just pop it out and back in with the new. Two minutes later I was done ... or so I thought. I pressed the power button looking for the welcome screen that would return me to my work files -- I'm in sales and depend on my customer files - but, oh, no! It won't take my system password. I always use available security features to secure my files and had enabled the administrator password when I first set up the computer six months ago. Hmmm, that's odd, I thought. Oh, well, I'll just call IBM and they'll help me out. Wrong, wrong, wrong."

This time when he called IBM support, the tech support rep he wound up speaking to did not seem nearly as knowledgeable and friendly as previously. "Instead, I got a sarcastic individual who seemed to regret that he was in customer service," the reader wrote. "I informed him of my situation and he proclaimed that 'oh, you have a big bill coming.' What gives? This was under warranty, and I just did what I was told to do, didn't I? The rep told me that any time the user password is forgotten that the unit has to come in to be reset, and it would cost me $183."

Not if the reader could help it. "After explaining my predicament to this rep and his supervisor, I was told that they would ship me a box for EasyServe repair and I should send it back for possible motherboard replacement," the reader wrote. "For a friggin' password? I knew my password, of course, it was simply that the machine would not take it after the CMOS was changed. Nice that they told me that. Actually, they asked why I had not told the initial service rep that I had a system password. What, am I the tech and am I supposed to know what to tell him?"

After five days had passed, the reader called IBM to track his repair order. "I was told it was fixed but has been put on finance hold," he wrote. "Oh, no, what now. I get transferred to the finance folks and am told that the motherboard was replaced and my bill is $725 plus tax. NO FREAKIN' WAY! Number one, it is not my fault they sent me a part to put in and did not tell me to disable system passwords. And they now have replaced a motherboard without my consent, as I had told them if the were not honoring the warranty to call first. I asked to speak to a supervisor and was told that I would have to talk to a grievance staff member. Of course, they could not connect me to one and told me that they must return my call. I cannot just ask to speak to one of them. This is expletive deleted. I need my computer for work, so I'm back on my old Apple PowerBook and like it better anyway. IBM is responsible for this, not me, and I sure won't pay $725 when I only paid $799 for the thing when it was new. I am frustrated, poor and feel like the small guy is not important to Big Blue."

Several weeks after I first heard from him, the reader says IBM is showing no signs of willingness to even talk to him about his warranty coverage for this problem. Well, it seems to have worked with HP, so let's see if it will work here. As it would take me a couple more months at best to work my way through the PR channels to get action on a case like this, I asked the reader for a support incident number. He reports it's reference # 33QMHYB. Should anyone at IBM want to respond, either by helping him out with the finance department or by disputing the facts of the case as the reader has recounted them, write me at Foster@gripe2ed.com, or, by all means, post your comments below.

Update [2005-3-17 11:37:5 by Ed Foster]:I'm happy to report that I just received a message from this reader, and IBM has now told him they will be supplying a new motherboard at their cost. -- Ed Foster

< Product News, the Public Interest, and FUD | An Evergreen Brink's Heist >


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Unforgotten Thinkpad Password Costs $725 | 264 comments (264 topical) | Post A Comment
Bad Press[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#1)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 12:57:35 AM PDT

Send this story to Mike Magee at http://www.theinquirer.net/

They are happy to post stories where a MegaCorp screws over the consumer, and they have a huge readership. The customer will likely get a response in a day or 2. Sending complaints to the BBB and his state's Attorney General office can be quite helpful too.

Some people have had good results from planetfeedback.com, though I've never tried there.

Wonder what's going to happen to IBM's customer service after the lenovo purchase? Nothing good, I'd guess.

[ Reply to This ]



Small claims court or maybe the[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#2)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 08:26:51 AM PDT

consumer protection office at the state attorney general's office would be my next step. This guy has suffered a serious blow to his ability to do his work, and IBM is responsible. Small claims court usually handles claims under a couple of thousand bucks. The Consumer Protection office of state attorney general offices also frequently have jurisdiction where warranty claims aren't being processed properly. Don't just stop with complaining to the company who is failing to support their product!

[ Reply to This ]


And if all else fails...[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#3)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 08:43:31 AM PDT

Ransom the laptop with your credit card, and then once you have it safely in your home, call the credit card company to dispute the charge.

This isn't customer service, it's customer extortion, therefore extreme measures may be justified.

[ Reply to This ]



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[ Parent | Reply to This ]


IBM - Two Questions[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#4)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 09:08:43 AM PDT

1. Where did he get a "new" ThinkPad for $800? 2. Did the sale to China go through yet?

[ Reply to This ]


China Sale[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#7)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 12:49:54 PM PDT

My understanding is that the sale did go through and there is a five year transition period. It is not clear who the customer service representatives work for anymore.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Not yet..[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#11)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 01:12:26 PM PDT

The sale is approved but is not yet finalized. It's all still IBM. I am trying to find someone to look into this. No promises

IBM Guy (but not related to PC Company)

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


BIOS[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#5)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 12:09:44 PM PDT

On a pc with a Bios password the hack is to remove the battery. That clears the password. So someone at IBM should have told him to enter a blank password. That was all that was needed.

[ Reply to This ]


Yes, I don't understand this[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#6)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 12:49:04 PM PDT

I've had batteries fail in several Dell computers after several years of use. All had BIOS passwords. The failure of the battery cleared the password (or made it impossible for the BIOS to remember it when power was shut off). The machines wouldn't hold a new password (when power was shut off) until I replaced the battery. Is IBM doing something different?

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


And, if you forget the password ...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#8)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 12:51:24 PM PDT

In fact, if you forget the password, you can get into the machine by turning off the power and removing the battery: bye-bye password. so, what's the story with IBM?

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Perhaps the HDD password?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#16)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 05:01:14 PM PDT

I'm doubtful the problem was just the BIOS password. As was noted, if it was reset, then the null password should have taken care of it. I feel like there is some missing factor here, like the user forgetting the actual password (which was no reset) or something about the HDD password, which is separate (though often set to be equal to) the BIOS password. I'm not sure about the BIOS password, but the HDD password is deliberately designed to be very hard to crack, even with physical possession of the HDD--for the specific case of stolen computers.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Other help[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#9)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 12:54:04 PM PDT

No, IBM passwords are different than others and true if you forget it than you are hurting both mentally and financially. This has happened to me (ugh). Here is a very reliable and inexpensive company that I have used to have mine reset. http://www.nortek.on.ca/hdd_pw.html

[ Reply to This ]


I wonder[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#10)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 01:10:53 PM PDT

I imagine that IBM did this for security purposes (to avoid the "remove the battery" hack). It would be interesting to know if this "feature" has helped or hurt more people.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Thanks! The IBM Laptop I was considering...I Won't[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#12)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 02:24:17 PM PDT

Thanks for this subject in the nick of time. I was considering replacing my aging Toshiba with a new highly rated IBM. Not now.

[ Reply to This ]


Thinkpad Passwords....[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#13)
by sarkeizen on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 03:01:17 PM PDT

...are this wierd irrational thing. Aside from the fact that IBM tends to be zero help in removing them. There are online communities of Thinkpad users like this one ( http://zurich.csail.mit.edu/hypermail/thinkpad/2002-05/0479.html ) that don't even want you to talk about password removal procedures....and accuse you of being a thief if you do. ( http://zurich.csail.mit.edu/hypermail/thinkpad/2002-05/0486.html )

[ Reply to This ]


Password Reset[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#15)
by Anonymous User on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 03:16:05 PM PDT

Toshiba certified technicians have a utility they use to re-set the system BIOS password. If they did not have this, they could not service Laptops without replacing the motherboard. This IBM thing has a familiar ring that sounds very much like something buried in a EULA somewhere. I have not learned anything here other than a dead CMOS battery effectively destroys the motherboard. That is one of the most bizzare intentional design features since the engineered design of short life incadescent light bulbs.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


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BIOS passwords - the curse of ThinkPad[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#14)
by DSchaffer on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 03:13:40 PM PDT

In many years of supporting ThinkPads the only real grief I've had has been with passwords. We once had to toss a machine because it spontaneously created a password for itself and IBM could find no solution. It's only money if you have a bunch of ThinkPads and can just throw the hard drive in another machine, but otherwise you're really in deep weeds.

[ Reply to This ]


IBM ThinkPad Support - or lack thereof[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#18)
by joep42 on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 09:20:49 PM PDT

What timing - I was in the process of researching laptops for personal use and IBM ThinkPad was at the top of my list. But I don't need this kind of crappy service and support - so IBM you are now at the bottom of my list. I guess the sale to Lenovo (China) means support will go down the drain despite IBM's claims to the contrary - and why should they care.

[ Reply to This ]


You make no sense[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#23)
by Anonymous User on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 08:50:57 AM PDT

What you're saying makes no sense. After the sale, you will speak to someone at Lenovo and they will be very incented to do things right. This whole incident has nothing to do with the sale.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Passwords[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#19)
by Anonymous User on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 12:23:19 AM PDT

Regarding some earlier comments, you have to differ between the Power-On Password, which will be cleared if the CMOS battery is removed for a while and the BIOS (aka Supervisor) Password, which is stored in the EEPROM on the motherboard and cannot be cleared by removing the CMOS battery as it is hard-wired in the EEPROM.

[ Reply to This ]


Two passwords[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#20)
by Anonymous User on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 03:36:20 AM PDT

It is helpful to know that there are two passwords used by IBM and that one can trash your computer when the lightbulb burns out while the other in maintained in EEPROM. If you think about it a little more carefully, it does not help to get hung up on semantics when there is at least one of the password functions that will most excellently trash your computer during the death throes of the CMOS battery driven handgranade. WOW!! I just saw the light. Now I totally understand why IBM sold the PC computer operations to China. The PC hardware design philosophy is seriously flawed!! My cynical nature developed during 40 years working with computers and other high-tech components strongly suggests that when there is one bodacious blunder there is most certainly another one, perhaps yet undiscovered, that will be brought to us all by the same creative mind that brought to pass the first blunder. No conniving designer worth their pay would stop with only blunder, they would be compelled to create another one perhaps finding a way to trigger its demise with an even longer fuse than just using a simple CMOS battery. Perhaps it is also buried in one of the logical cubby holes of the ROM-BIOS. Is this an example of a true Trojan horse? Perhaps IBM has found a way to undermine the success of the buyer of the PC operations. Why would they do that? We owe a great debt of gratitude to that obnoxious IBM telephone technician and their equally emasculated manager both of whom had neither the wherewithall nor the desire to solve such a simple problem as a depleted battery. No wonder they had such rotten attitudes. I would also have a bad attitude if I had the job of covering up IBM's blunders by trying to place blame on IBM's customers, and then... charging those customers for the privilage. WOW!!! What chutzpah!! I am consulting for a green field automated manufacturing plant project over several regional sites wherein I am participating in the evaluation and selection of a development and integration partner for MES, ERP, and MRP components. IBM was at the top of my list having been highly recommended. Now I must re-think my direction. One obnoxious IBM operation reflects the real customer committment of the company and I expect similar treatment from elsewhere in the company when difficulties occur. Thank you all for helping me learn what the real IBM attitudes are. I will surely need a better partner than that.

[ Reply to This ]


different passwords[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#21)
by Anonymous User on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 04:58:08 AM PDT

Maybe the case was like this: 1. Customer enables BIOS Password as he turned on the machine for the very first time. 2. Customer enables Power On Password right after. Every time the customer turns on his laptop, he has to enter the Power On Password to get the system running, unless you want ot enter the BIOS setup, you will never ever need to enter the BIOS Password. If the CMOS battery is replaced, the Power On Password is cleared and you will have to enter the BIOS password to set date and time in the BIOS. Of course you can't enter the BIOS when you enter the Power On Password in this case. Maybe this guy just didn't remember that he also enabled the BIOS password at the very beginning as it is most likely that he never had to use it up to the time when he needed to set Date and Time in the BIOS. I am using a ThinkPad myself and the different types of Passwords (which can be removed and which not) are described very detailed in the User's Manual. I don't want to allege that this guy simply was not aware what password he enabled at the very start and that he simply forgot the BIOS password which he maybe never ever needed to enter afterwards, but there is a chance that this has been the case.

[ Reply to This ]


Multiple PWs[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#35)
by JHEM on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 09:45:26 AM PDT

I have to agree that this appears to be the facts in this case.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Unlock your BIOS password maybe I can help you out[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#56)
by Anonymous User on Wed Oct 26, 2005 at 08:24:30 PM PDT

Hey, I can help you out if you wanted to get your bios password back. Let me know? you can vist my site for more information. http://ibmpassword.serveftp.com let me know if I can help you out

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


So how much business has IBM lost so far[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#22)
by Anonymous User on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 08:39:49 AM PDT

Hey, Ed, maybe you could set up a poll for people to respond, indicating if this story has steered them away from a likely IBM purchase (and, if possible indicate how many systems might have been purchased). It would be nice to know just how much business they've lost by their ridiculous policies and poor "Customer Service" attitudes in this one incident.

[ Reply to This ]


Never experienced this.[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#24)
by Anonymous User on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 09:21:17 AM PDT

I have purchased dozens of IBM's and have called tech support many times. I have never experienced any problems at all. They have always been courteous, knowledgable and understandable. I am however, very concerned about what the sale to China will mean. If IBM's service quality goes way down, I will switch to Toshibas. And, of course, I don't have to tell anybody in this group about Dell's poor support.

[ Reply to This ]


Re: Never experienced this[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#36)
by JHEM on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 09:48:37 AM PDT

While the sale of manufacturing has been consumated, one thing to keep in mind is that IBM has retained the support and maintenance to themselves for the next five years. IOW, when you call for repair or support services in the US, you'll still get a native English speaker in the US or Canada.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Not for long...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#39)
by Anonymous User on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 01:06:01 AM PDT

All those expensive call centers in the first world will suddenly have to field an exploding number of calls, as all of a sudden every tom, dick, and harry reports some hardware failure or another. (At the same time, the repair centers will find themselves suddenly doing a brisk business in "removing smoldering, cracked components with Made in China prominently stenciled on them and replacing them with similarly-marked new parts".) Sooner or later the ballooning call center costs will "justify" offshoring that division, too, probably to India.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Where do you think they are made now???[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#42)
by Anonymous User on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 11:06:27 AM PDT

Where do you think the machines are made today? Many are made in China. I suspect the manufacturing location won't change at all.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Re: Never experienced this[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#40)
by Anonymous User on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 06:50:31 AM PDT

"IOW, when you call for repair or support services in the US, you'll still get a native English speaker in the US or Canada."

I guess H1-B would be considered a troll here?

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huh?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#41)
by Mason on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 08:23:08 AM PDT

Okay, what's more likely:  Getting someone who is here on an H1B Visa doing phone tech support, or getting someone in India?  

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yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#620)
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