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Of Piracy, Motherboards, and Microsoft

By Ed Foster, Section The Gripelog
Posted on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 12:03:00 AM PDT

Occasionally a story comes along that seems to tie together a lot of the threads we've been following. An example is a tale one reader just relayed that, while seemingly quite mundane, nonetheless touches on such recent topics as justifying piracy, bad motherboards, and Microsoft's advantage over customers.


"I work at a small 'mom and pop' computer shop in Maryland," the reader wrote. "We survive mainly by doing repairs. A customer came in with an E-Machine with a bad motherboard. E-Machines wanted a ridiculous price for a new motherboard, so we installed a cheaper non-E-Machines motherboard, saving the customer money."

Because of the new motherboard, of course, Windows XP activation was triggered. "During the requisite call to Microsoft for an activation number, we were told that Microsoft could NOT give us the activation for this particular copy of XP since it was sold through a 'special licensing agreement' with E-Machines. Even though we had the 25-digit license number, Microsoft insisted we would have to contact the manufacturer for the activation number. Two separate calls to E-Machines elicited the same response. NO activation number would be given since we did not install an 'official' and expensive E-Machines motherboard. So the customer is forced into purchasing another copy of Windows XP even though they already paid for the original license when they first bought the computer and have all the required proof."

In other words, the reader's customer -- who has done nothing wrong other than have a motherboard fail on him -- has the choice of paying ransom to E-Machines or to Microsoft to have a functioning OS again. Which led the reader to wonder just what would constitute piracy in such a situation. "We all know there are plenty of copies of XP that work fine without the product activation scheme," the reader wrote. "Usually these are copies of corporate or academic versions of XP originally sold by Microsoft with broad licenses covering many computers. Is this customer justified in installing such a 'pirated' copy of XP on this system? Or should the customer have to buy yet another copy of XP, and presumably throw his old copy in the trash, just because his motherboard failed?"

Those are interesting questions. I know what Microsoft would say: the XP EULA doesn't allow you to transfer a license from one machine to another, so it's totally up to the OEM to decide if it's the same machine or not. And we know what E-Machines (which is now a Gateway brand) or most other OEMs are going to say to that: buy the replacement parts from us at our price or else. And we know one other thing. As Microsoft continues to tighten the screws on its "Genuine Windows" validation process and other campaigns supposedly intended to fight piracy, more and more customers are going to find themselves in similar circumstances to the reader's customer. After all, not only can these tactics produce more revenue for Microsoft, it obviously gives the PC manufacturer leverage on the customer as well.

So how would you answer the reader's questions? And who bears the most responsibility for this situation -- Microsoft, the OEMs, or the customers who keep buying into it? Post your comments below or write me at Foster@gripe2ed.com.

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Of Piracy, Motherboards, and Microsoft | 158 comments (158 topical) | Post A Comment
OS costs[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#1)
by Anonymous User on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 12:37:41 AM PDT

About 10 years ago, a nice desktop system would cost over $1500. Now they are under the $500 range. While every other component has dropped in price, the cost of Windows has remained the same or even increased. At home, I use OpenOffice. I recently moved to a new work environment and Microsoft Office is what is used. I toyed around with the idea of purchasing a copy of Office. The price was over $300 almost as much as an entire desktop computer. I run Ubuntu Linux on my desktop. Shouldn't you?

[ Reply to This ]


Ah, but Windows...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#2)
by Anonymous User on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 02:45:27 AM PDT

I'm sure Micro$oft would argue that Windows has gotten a lot more complex in that time - heck, ten years ago you could still buy it on floppy disc. :) Of course, so has all the hardware and everything else, and those prices have dropped, but I'm sure Microsoft will quietly ignore that... The price of Office is truly bananas though. I needed Access to do some freelance work last year and it blew a sizeable hole in my fee... It wouldn't be so bad if it were something that was obviously a high-quality purchase but I can't for the life of me see what's in Access that makes it worth that money. (Other than that Microsoft can get away with charging that amount because poor saps like me have no choice but to buy it.)

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


gggkgjhguyg[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#367)
by Anonymous User on Fri Nov 17, 2006 at 09:57:57 AM PDT

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[ Parent | Reply to This ]


windows[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#394)
by Anonymous User on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 08:14:00 AM PDT

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[ Parent | Reply to This ]


ask[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#406)
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[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Outragous[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#3)
by Anonymous User on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 05:02:43 AM PDT

describes both Microsoft and eMachine's behavior.

Unfortunately I do not see it being legal for the customer to use a version of XP they are not normally allowed to buy.

While I don't generally advocate changing OS, in this case I would consider it, especially if the end-user/customer can find similiar applications to those he/she uses now on XP. If that is the case I would look at one of the Linux distributions.

If this were to happen to me, I would not hesitate in switching platforms. If enough people/users do this then Microsoft and the computer makers will hear us through lowered profits.

Take care,

[ Reply to This ]



But it won't do any good.[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#6)
by Garminski on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 07:00:44 AM PDT

Unfortunatly, it won't do any good in cases like this because both Microsoft and E-Machines already have the customers money from the initial purchase. If he switches operating systems and/or installs cheaper (meaning less money...it is hard to get "cheaper" parts then E-Machines) at this time neither company will care because they have already made and recorded the initial sale. If either of them can extort more money from end users so much the better as far as they are concerened. If any change can be "forced" by consumer behavoir it has to be at the initial point of sale to make a difference. Otherwise, the big boys will not listen.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Yes, it will do some good.[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#30)
by Anonymous User on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 01:56:46 PM PDT

If that user were to have a copy of Fedora Core 4 installed on his computer (cost $0 plus labor,) Then there would be one more user who would NEVER purchase anything genuine Microsoft again. eachines and Microsoft are at fault, but the tech should know of, and be able to support such a user friendly, low cost alternative. This would provide Mozilla Browser, Open Office 2.0, and Ximian Evolution, a program which blows Outlook away. Of course Windows based games would not work, and that is the nub of it isn't it?

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Linux v Microsoft[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#103)
by Anonymous User on Thu Dec 22, 2005 at 11:07:12 AM PDT

There are applications that run on Linux that actually make the Windows based games work even better on Linux. Do a google search. Also, anything you can do on Windows, you can do even better on Linux. The only drawback I have with Linux is when you install some new application, I can never get it to work because you have to always install additional modules. With linux nothing is automatic like in windows. As far as sticking it to Bill Gates, I am all for it!

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


It won't do any good in a vacuum, but...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#52)
by ekuns on Wed Oct 12, 2005 at 07:56:28 PM PDT

If someone makes such a switch and follows it up with a short, polite letter to both companies, perhaps the PR department, describing the problem, the chosen solution, and their future loss in sales ... especially taking into account that others know about this egregious attempt to kick a customer while s/he is down, then there might be some response.

If there is no response to an individual doing this, there will definitely be a response when this starts happening in larger numbers.



[ Parent | Reply to This ]


It won't make a difference[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#72)
by terry v on Tue Oct 18, 2005 at 11:06:05 AM PDT

I can assure you that there is no response to an individual doing that.  Years ago, I upgraded a computer running Win 98 with a new motherboard and hard drive.  Windows would not re-install because there was no MS OS on the drive.  The last full MS installation (not upgrade) I had was MS DOS on 5.25 floppies, and I no longer had a working drive that size.

I contacted MS CS by email, since it was the only way I could get through.  Even though I was a registered buyer of every MS OS version back to DOS 3.0, MS would give me only two alternatives: buy a copy of the OS on usable media, or buy a working 5.25 drive.

That made me angry, and I felt betrayed, so I made the jump to Linux.  About a week later, I got an email from the CS rep wanting to know if my problem had been resolved.  I told him that it had, I was running Linux, and there were things I'd miss, but I no longer viewed MS as dealing honestly with their customers.  That was the last I heard from them.

As far as the response when larger numbers jump ship, we've already seen Microsoft's reaction.  They've made PR attacks, funded one-sided "studies", and funded a lawsuit against Linux.  Now, they want to make their own DRM the law of the land and lock customers (sorry, I mean consumers) in even more.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



It won't make a difference[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#74)
by jam on Tue Oct 18, 2005 at 03:19:40 PM PDT

For reasons like this, I had my copy of Windows 3.1 zipped up on my hard drive, for relatively easy installation whenever I needed to reinstall Windows 98. I figured a Windows 3.1 install wouldn't put too much on my hard drive that I didn't want, and would get by the upgrade code in the Win98 installer.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Microsoft Licenses live and die w/ the hardware[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#4)
by Fred99 on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 05:42:05 AM PDT

Microsoft clearly expects users to buy a new copy of Windows under these circumstances. It's likely that the new motherboard has a faster processor installed and maybe even more memory, and as far as Microsoft is concerned - this makes it a new machine and requires another license.

Otherwise, Microsoft would also have to allow you to move a existing hard drive (with its Windows license) from an old OEM machine and install it into a new "bare iron" machine. - We all know Microsoft can't allow that or their entire business model would colapse.

MS requires you buy a full packaged product (FPP) copy of Windows to allow you any movement. However, the "Catch 22" is that buying a machine SANS Windows OS from any major manufacturer is practically impossible.

[ Reply to This ]


That's not exactly true[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#53)
by ekuns on Wed Oct 12, 2005 at 08:02:11 PM PDT

For example, if you purchase a box set of Windows, they have no legal leverage to get you to retire that copy when you replace that computer. They certainly now have the ability to force you to retire that copy, via activation and the lack thereof. But I don't recall anything in the license from a box set that prevents you from legally moving the entire OS from one machine to another machine. (As long as you fully remove it from the first machine or the first machine is rendered totally inoperable, or the like.)

When you're talking about an OEM copy of Windows, however, what you say is possibly true. That is, that copy of Windows being licensed to a specific OEM platform. The OEM vender certainly has the option to update your platform without requiring you purchase a new "license," but Microsoft has no motivation to help you do this.



[ Parent | Reply to This ]


WRONG !![ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#78)
by Anonymous User on Wed Oct 19, 2005 at 06:12:05 AM PDT

WRONG !!!!! This was a simple repair. New motherboard ONLY.....required by the failure of the original one. Do NOT make up your own version of the facts !! I am the technition involved.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


new motherboard[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#87)
by Anonymous User on Sun Oct 23, 2005 at 07:55:51 PM PDT

I'll bet Microsoft has the auto industry lawyers working full time trying to figure out how they can force this type of behavior on the auto industry. need a tune up? need a new gasket? beed brakes? only from an authorized dealer. install your own? and the ar will stop working what really needs to happen is for this to happen to several of our legislators's personal computers, and the money have to come out of thier pockets.... so let us hope this occurs to quite a few of our own Representatives?

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


a government Rep. fixing their own computer??[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#101)
by Anonymous User on Fri Dec 02, 2005 at 05:36:45 PM PDT

Surely you jest. You think that a Representative is going to fix his/her own computer? Not likely! They'll probably get a staffer or intern to deal with it, and if they even notice the money spent they'll likely pat themselves on the back for supporting a US company.

The taxpayers will probably pick up the tab anyway.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Unsuitable Definition of Legal[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#5)
by srynas on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 06:29:07 AM PDT

We have a logical flaw in many of our discussions.  In many cases we simply acquiesce to the assertion by a corporation that their "bad" business practices are actually legal.  We then react by either advocating switching to a different product, which is an appropriate solution; or by living with the corporate definition of legal.  We need to question (refute) the corporate imposed definition of "legal".  Ed reported, a first step, in "FTC Knocks Sypware EULA" (Oct. 7, 2005).  Microsoft and the European Commission (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050907-5281.htm) are busy arguing the legality of Microsoft's business strategy.

To answer the question, the customer should have a legal right to re-install the operating system.  It is not pirating.  We need to enahance the definition of legal to override abusive business practices.

[ Reply to This ]



As long...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#7)
by Garminski on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 07:05:02 AM PDT

As long as the operating system came from the same computer. Companies are in business to make money which is fine. They expect us to purchase products when we are going to use them which is again fine. What makes me mad is when a company wants me to purchase a product that I already own. What good is a Windows license if you can't use it? Especially, on the same machine you bought it on!

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Motherboard change[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#8)
by Anonymous User on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 09:09:20 AM PDT

While I sympathize with the user, in this case if we are honest the machine is effectively no longer an E-Machines computer with a completely different motherboard.  All OEMs put custom things into their motherboards which cannot be purchased as a unit any other way.  This is just not the same as adding a hard drive, memory or a DVD burner.  It is also likely that the computer shop had to remove all of the existing components and place them into another case as most but not all OEM cases are not standard ATX cases either.  OEM copies of Windows are heavily discounted to the OEM by Microsoft because the OEM must provide first tier support for Windows for OEM copies of Windows.  Therefore, in this case if E-Machines would have had to continue to provide Windows support to the user even though it no longer was effectively an E-Machines computer.  While I may not like the OEM Windows license agreement until it is ruled to be unenforceable for some reason then all that can be done is either switch to a different OS or purchase another copy of Windows.  I would finally like to note that the shop that installed the new motherboard could sell the user an OEM copy of Windows with the new motherboard and save the user money on the new purchase of Windows.  

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Totally unacceptable[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#10)
by Anonymous User on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 09:40:08 AM PDT

Just because it's a new motherboard, Micro$oft has no right to tell the user to buy a new copy. I hope he found a cracked version or a corporate, non-activated version and used it. These companies need to get shut down and slapped down. If their software borks your computer and your data, they aren't responsible, yet you have no rights whatsoever. Screw that... examples like this are all the more reason to copy software...

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Corporate versions[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#15)
by Anonymous User on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 11:06:04 AM PDT

They don't need activation but at least the warez versions I've seen fail the Windows Genuine Advantage test. I'm not a pirate but I hunted one down after running out of activations on my legit copy due to Windows periodically deciding to screw itself up.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


avoid activation and genuine advantage[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#84)
by Anonymous User on Thu Oct 20, 2005 at 09:12:44 AM PDT

There are steps you can take to get around having to activate and genuine checking. I would certainly have to say that MBD replacement should not constitue having to purchase a new license. Considering the MBD is only 1/8th(~)the total cost of a new machine, it stands to reason that it is actually the same machine with a different MBD. It is stupid to consider otherwise. I myself would totally disregard any laws pertaining to this and install whatever copy i could on my machine in this case. Let MS come track me down so I can explain how screwed up their shiz is. I cant tell you how many new machines I have used my single license on. Heck, I have installed XP on three different machines already. Keep in mind it is only on one machine at one time. Down with MS.

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You must be kidding[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#17)
by Anonymous User on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 11:26:22 AM PDT

Changing motherboards is NOT and never will be considered anything but an upgrade. In fact if you wanted to change out every part in the PC you should have the right to do so. Only if you install on a second machine should you be required to buy another copy. Microsoft is dead wrong to deny this customer the ability to re-install windows. In fact, I doubt that it's even legal for M$ to do so. Now you can see why they have been convicted of being a monopoly. I used to root for M$ before they started this sort of BS.

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And there's the rub about OEM software...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#41)
by Anonymous User on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:59:17 PM PDT

Let me start with a disclaimer: I am CERTAINLY not a witness for Microsoft - I only use Windows on my gaming machine. Even my workstation at work is Fedora.
OEM software requires the "customer" to give up a few things to get the cheap(er) price: no printed manual and in the case of OEM Windows you're only allowed a TOTAL of 6 hardware changes before you're required to reactivate (the RETAIL product doesn't have this limitation - which is why it's significantly more expensive). Oh, and you're not allowed to call Micro$oft with any questions - your system builder will have to support Windows. That being said, I've changed out MANY eMachines motherboards, same with Compaq, HP, Dell, etc. They all will accept a standard MicroATX motherboard. Very often I have to reactivate Windows (also happens if you reinstall Windows using an SP1 CD when it was originally installed with an SP2 CD or vice versa). Microsoft has NEVER failed to activate me: I tell them it's a preinstalled Dell (Gateway, HP, Compaq - fill in the blank here) and I had to reinstall. They invariably read from the same script: "how many other computers is this version of Windows installed on?" Me: "none." MSoft: "Okay, here's your new activation code." If you can't get that, something's WRONG.
In a total of TWO instances (out of, oh I'd guess 30) I've had to read them back the Product Key - every other time it's only the Special Activation Code.

(BTW, I HIGHLY recommend any Linux version over XP for businesses)

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That's new.[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#48)
by foxyshadis1 on Wed Oct 12, 2005 at 03:29:25 PM PDT

Six? That's interesting, I don't know that. So if they refuse to activate after changing only one part, they're in violation of their own oem agreement? Or is it 'maximum of 6 at the oem's discretion'? I know the windows itself will trigger a manual reactivation after two hardware changes or one major change, such as a motherboard (since that typically changes other system ids). But if their policy is six changes then they should be ready to give it out.

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To buy or not to buy.[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#25)
by podzach on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 12:47:55 PM PDT

So if we take this motherboard analogy to an automobile, then Exxon could do the same thing to us. If we buy gas at an Exxon station then change engines in the vehicle, we should not be able to use the gas we previously purchased, right? The new engine may have more power, or more cylinders, but since it still uses the same gasoline, why do I have to throw out the gasoline? One more thing. The comment about the repair shop being able to sell another OEM copy of Windows would work for the larger shops. The smaller "Mom&Pop" shops cannot afford to do that and still give their customers good service. Service is the first thing to go when GREED sets in. Thanks Micro$oft.

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Gas is a consumable[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#77)
by Anonymous User on Wed Oct 19, 2005 at 12:17:55 AM PDT

The gas to computers comparisons are silly. For cars, think more about the new extended life coolants that last for essentially the lifetime of the engine or the new sealed system oils that never need changing. The coolant company is guaranteeing the coolant for 300K miles or 600K miles. If you swap out the engine after 150K miles, you aren't going to expect the coolant company to give you new coolant for the next 150K miles are you? Or even to fulfill the guarantee if you drain the coolant from one radiator and put it in the new engine. If you want to compare gas to something, compare it to the electricity that runs the computer. Microsoft still isn't requiring you to re-license when you connect back up to power.

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The motherboard is not a fluid :)[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#79)
by ekuns on Wed Oct 19, 2005 at 06:47:41 AM PDT

A better comparison would be the engine of a car. Or maybe, since you have to add memory, CPU, and so on to a motherboard, maybe the motherboard would be just the shell of the engine. The motherboard basically provides an infrastructure into which everything else connects. It is a standardized-format pluggable replacable infrastructure component.

Computers are not delivered to you with a "There are no user-servicable parts inside" sticker, and in fact it is common and accepted practice for people to open up OEM computers to upgrade and to add parts. An engine component with a sealed fluid is essentially delivered to you with a "There are no user-servicable parts inside" sticker. We are not talking about replacing the motherboard inside a stereo receiver with a different model and then asking the manufacturer to allow it to work. (Although even there, if a manufacturer put a restriction inside to specifically prevent that, it would be annoying. And if the manufacturer had the law changed to make it illegal to prevent that, it would be appalling.)



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Motherboard change[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#31)
by Anonymous User on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 02:02:40 PM PDT

Only one part was changed. In the past twelve years I have replaced sparkplugs, tires, belts, fenders, paint, filters, mats, and many other things in my car. Does this mean it's not a Chevy now? Will they sue me if I don't remove the name?

The owner and customer should try contacting the local Consumer Protection Agency and Attorney General. I've done that with non-computer disputes and gotten results. One of the other companies was actually in Chicago so the NYS Attorney General's Office contacted the Illinois Attorney General's Office and I had two states and a County investigating them.



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What "custom motherboards"?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#34)
by The Masked Marauder on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 02:26:42 PM PDT

All OEMs put custom things into their motherboards which cannot be purchased as a unit any other way.

And just what would those "custom things" be? If you look inside a typical commodity PC, you'll discover that it uses a common, ordinary motherboard from the likes of ASUS, Intel, MSI, etc. The only customization it has received is to remove the OEM's name from the BIOS and to insert the vendor's name.

Changing the motherboard in a PC is akin to changing the engine in a car. This does not require a new key to start the engine. If I have a valid Windows product key, it should be good no matter what components are changed inside the box. Microsoft's and the PC vendor's tactics amount to nothing short of extortion in order to boost their sales.

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Is it REALLY the same machine?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#35)
by wsalomon on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 02:28:41 PM PDT

The comment that changing a desktop's motherboard means that it a different machine is specious. What if the CPU (with internal serial number) remained the same, but the motherboard was different? As the CPU, the "heart" of the machine is unchanged, is it different or not? What about if we changed the case from branded to white-box special? Perhaps the case of a laptop where the motherboard is integrally most of the machine is different. All this amounts to is hair-splitting about what a PC is composed of. In the automated activation process, it depends on whatever Microsoft's self-imposed algorithm says it is: is there a specific "weighting" of evidence for the mother board serial #, CPU serial #, drive ID #, etc. At the point this becomes ambiguous, it becomes a human's task to follow this out, obey the letter and spirit of the EULA. In this case there are 2 parties at fault - Microsoft in a poor algorithm, and E-Machine/Gateway for gaming the identity process. Sue them both!

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Is it really the same machine?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#44)
by Anonymous User on Wed Oct 12, 2005 at 06:02:44 AM PDT

What if the motherboard remained the same but the CPU were changed? Would that still be the same machine?

What constitutes a "machine" is the sum of ALL its parts: the motherboard, the CPU, the memory, the power supply, the case, and the hard drive. Replacement of any one of these components does not constitute a new "machine." It could be argued that if ALL of the components of the old machine were replaced, then one would truly have a new machine.

I theorise that what the manufacturer calls "the machine" is the item to which the serial number is assigned... be it the case or the motherboard. With an automobile (for example), the serial number is assigned to the frame. That is what is transferred by the title. You can change all the mechanical parts you please, but as long as you have the original frame, then legally you have the same automobile.

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Actually, they're not custom motherboards[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#43)
by Reziac on Wed Oct 12, 2005 at 12:13:09 AM PDT

eMachines often use a bottom-end Asus motherboard, and the only real customization is the embedded BIOS graphic.

In any event, why doesn't Moss-Magnusson apply here? this is exactly the same as if your cheap foreign car's engine died, but the whole car's license was revoked unless you bought an overpriced replacement from the original manufacturer, instead of getting a rebuilt generic engine from a local mechanic, at a far more reasonable price.
~REZ~
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Didn't we win this fight with the auto makers...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#69)
by Anonymous User on Tue Oct 18, 2005 at 09:11:39 AM PDT

we can now use fram filters instead of the once mandated ac delco or fort parts. why doesn't this follow for computers and printers?

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yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#376)
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yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#380)
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yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#384)
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yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#391)
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