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Settling With Secret Terms

By Ed Foster, Section Columns
Posted on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 01:09:39 AM PDT

Would software licensing terms be any less nasty if we could read them before we made our purchase decision? It's an interesting question, and one I think is going to be answered in the not-so-distant future.


A few weeks back I wrote about a legal settlement involving Microsoft, Symantec and Adobe plus three major retailers regarding the availability of EULAs and the right to return opened software. And while many readers agreed it's an important victory for customers, some thought it didn't really change anything. "You can contact any of these manufacturers and request copies of the EULA prior to purchase," wrote one reader. "Even if you don't have a computer, you can phone, or write to obtain a copy of a EULA. Not being able to read it before purchase was her (the plaintiff's) own fault, for not thinking logically."

Actually, the reader is wrong about that, particularly concerning Microsoft's practices and philosophy before this lawsuit was filed. Back when UCITA was being drafted, Microsoft representatives and their cohorts from the Business Software Alliance were particularly adamant that software publishers should not be required to present license terms before purchase, even in online transactions where it's simple to do. And, it so happens, in 2002 I went through the exercise of calling Microsoft -- as a prospective customer, not a journalist -- to ask that they send me the EULA for one of its products that was not to be found on their website. They ultimately refused to email, mail, or fax it to me, saying it was their policy that customers could only see the EULA after purchasing the product.

At the same time back in 2002, I also checked the websites of other major software publishers to see how many of them made their EULAs available. With a single exception, none put their license agreements in a place where a visitor to their website would be likely to find it. Symantec seemed to have no EULAs on its website at all. When I called them as a prospective Norton AntiVirus customer wanting to see the license agreement, they did finally agree to fax it to me.

The single exception among publishers was Adobe. Even before the lawsuit, Adobe had all of its license agreements readily accessible on its website, a fact that leads to a couple of points. One is that, just because customers could read the Acrobat EULA before going into the store, it doesn't mean they were obliged to do so. They still should have the right to reject the EULA when they eventually do see it and get their money back. In fact, the main change in its procedures that Adobe agreed to in the settlement was to provide a refund to customers who buy the product at a retail store rather buying it from Adobe directly.

There's one other thing about Adobe. Perhaps it's just a coincidence, but along with being the one big publisher that's had its EULAs posted all along, it also has the most reasonable EULAs, at least of any of the BSA member companies. You will recall the stark contrast we saw between the Photoshop CS and AutoCad 2005 license agreements when we compared the terms of both in detail. And, perhaps it's just again a coincidence, but Autodesk is even more secretive about its EULAs than Microsoft ever was.

It's almost like there's a sliding scale. The worse a software publisher's terms are, the more it wants to keep them hidden until after you've bought their product. And perhaps the reverse is true as well. Like I said, I think we're going to find out. The settlement in this lawsuit was definitely a step in the right direction, but there are more steps about to be taken, so stay tuned.

--------------------

Post your comments about this column below or write me directly at Foster@gripe2ed.com. To receive this column every week in my free e-mail newsletter, please go to my subscription page and follow the instructions to opt-in for the EdFoster mailing list.

< Apple As Big Brother | Activation Good for Only 90 Days >


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Settling With Secret Terms | 19 comments (19 topical) | Post A Comment
How can a company not allow you to review?[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#1)
by auctionhugh on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 01:06:42 PM PDT

I guess I don't understand how a company could not allow you to review the terms of a contract before you enter into it. I'm not a lawyer but it seems like common sense.

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[ Reply to This ]



yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#382)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:09:05 PM PDT

出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


I think next time I sell a house...[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#2)
by Anonymous User on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 02:55:39 PM PDT

...I'm going to just sell it.  No contract, just a receipt for the buyer.

Then after the buyer moves in, I'll present a 30-page list of terms and say, "These are the terms under which you bought the house.  If you don't agree with them, kindly move back out and your money will be cheerfully refunded, less handling fees."

Think it'll work?

[ Reply to This ]



yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#386)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 10:54:43 PM PDT

出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


EULA's[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#3)
by Anonymous User on Wed Jan 12, 2005 at 08:53:02 AM PDT

"...it was their policy that customers could only see the EULA after purchasing the product." The point here IMHO is that we are talking about an EULAgreement. The term Agreement implies mutual knowlege and both parties' consent. If I cannot read a EULA without opening the package, fine. However, I cannot agree to something that I cannot have seen. If, on seeing it, I do not agree, then it is not an agreement. Thus, I am not bound by it. If my non-agreement precludes use of the license, then the authors of the EULA, not me, have precluded use, so they have taken my money but they are refusing to provide the license for it. I am entitled to a refund. Note that if they deliver a product and then claim to refuse use over non-agreement, but keep my money, this may entitle me to reasonable use outside the terms of the license. That is not what they want, and the main reason they should give a refund. An Agreement, as with any contract, is a two-way street. - htconner

[ Reply to This ]


Close[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#6)
by Anonymous User on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 06:46:59 AM PDT

Actually, barring a valid contract agreed to by both parties, buying a piece of software is the same as buying a book. Copyright does not restrict the USE of a work, only the distribution of the work. Also, contrary to what the software houses would have you believe, standard copyright law does not consider the copy on the hard drive or in memory to be an illegal copy, because those copies are a *required* part of *using* the software.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


The theory behind EULAs[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#7)
by sconeu on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 08:22:22 AM PDT

IANAL, but...

My understanding is that because the use of a program involves making a (temporary) copy in RAM, that the software companies decided that copyright law can apply, and they can control how said copy is made and used under copyright law.

Any IAALs out there want to comment or correct me?

--
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the United States of America.
[ Parent | Reply to This ]



yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#384)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:09:37 PM PDT

出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


EULA on the web or in the mail are fine but....[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#4)
by Anonymous User on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 07:24:26 PM PDT

Who is to say the EULA that you read on the web today is the same as the EULA that was printed and inserted in the box 6 months ago. Which one applies, the one delivered with your purchase, the one being currently printed and stuffed? Sounds like more money for the lawyers...

[ Reply to This ]


yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#381)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:09:02 PM PDT

出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Wait until MS activation comes[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#5)
by Ken Lam on Fri Jan 14, 2005 at 05:29:35 AM PDT

I wonder, when microsoft drops support for a software platform, will they deactivate their activation system support for that EOL software? Obviously XP and later generations of software (both OS and applications) use their wonderful technology. So, in two or three years, when XP is EOL, do you think we won't be able to activate our OS anymore? I suppose if that happens, the comments/complaint mailbox at microsoft will balloon and the exchange server will crash, they'll have to rebuild the server, but won't be able to reactivate the software, so our emails will bounce and our concerns will be left unheard and unheeded!

[ Reply to This ]


yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#383)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:09:26 PM PDT

出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


sell clear Air Force One,clear Bape Shoes, Adidas,[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#41)
by Anonymous User on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 09:43:51 PM PDT

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[ Reply to This ]


yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#380)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:07:31 PM PDT

出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


fasdf[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#377)
by Anonymous User on Tue Nov 21, 2006 at 03:55:40 AM PDT

dzsfdas

[ Reply to This ]


yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#387)
by maderikapapa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 12:42:53 AM PDT

出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


silent kiiler[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#378)
by Anonymous User on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:10:47 AM PDT

منتديات منتديات وصلات هي منتديات تهتم بالمتصفح العربي وتوفر له جميع ما يحتاجه من مواد مجانية افلام وكليبات منتديات الافلام و الكليبات المثيرة و الحصرية اي فلم او مقطع او كليب يوتيوب افلام و كليبات مضحكة منتدي الافلام و المقاطع و الكليبات المضحكة و الكوميدية funny videos movies افلام وكليبات رياضية منتدي الافلام و الكليبات و المقاطع الرياضية اهداف و لقائات و استعراضات رياضيه مرئية منتدي البرامج منتدي البرامج الهامة جديد البرامج شروحات البرامج برامج المواقع العالمية منتدي الالعاب منتدي جديد الالعاب العاب فلاش العاب كمبيوتر مواضيع متعلقه بالالعاب منتدي تطوير المواقع منتدي برامج لتطوير المواقع سكربتات تطوير اهم البرامج العالمية هاكات منتدي وصلات العام منتديات عامة نقاشات و حوارات جادة لقائات حصرية مشاكل وقضايا عربية مواضيع مميزة منتدي المواضيع المميزة مواضيع حصرية مواضيع و مشاركات هادفة منتدي التصميم منتدي التصميم و المصممين دروس جرافيكس فوتوشوب فلاش تصميم مواقع منتدي المرح منتدي التسلية و المرح مشاهد مضحكة صور مضحكة نكت و مقالات مضحكة منتدي القصص منتدي القصص و الحكايات روايات قصص مسموعة قصص طويلة قصص قصيرة جوالات منتدي جوالات موبايل برامج جوال ثيمات جوال العاب جوال كل ما يتعلق بالجوال ثيمات منتدي ثيمات جوال ثيمات موبايل ثيمات نوكيا ثيمز للجوال ثيمات سوني اريكسون برامج نوكيا منتدي برامج الجوال برامج موبايل برامج نوكيا برامج جوال سوني اريسكون نغمات موبايل نغمات صوتية نغمات جديدة منتدي النغمات نغمات جوال wav و mp3 و amr مسجات مسجات و رسائل جوال رسايل موبايل احدث المسجات مسجات حب مسجات الجوال منتديات رئيسية افلام كليبات رياضة صور العاب تحميل برامج كبيوتر انترنت فيديوهات منتديات عامة منتديات عامة دردشة مضحكة نكت مقالات صور تسلية مرح نقاش منتديات الجوالات برامج نوكيا سوني اريكسون جوال موبايل نغمات ثيمات جوالات موبايلات

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yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#385)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 10:51:17 PM PDT

出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

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yes[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#379)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 06:35:55 PM PDT

出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

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