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Microsoft, OEMs, Users and Blame

By Ed Foster, Section The Gripelog
Posted on Tue Jun 22, 2004 at 12:18:35 AM PDT

In a recent weblog item, I talked about the owner of a new PC who had to pay $149 for Dell support to tell her how to change a default setting in Outlook. This spurred quite a debate among readers about just who was to blame.

As the OEM, many readers felt it was completely Dell's responsibility. "I have a rhetorical question for Dell," wrote one reader. "If they are always bragging in their commercials that 'award-winning service comes standard,' then why charge $149 for software support? Isn't that an option and not a standard? I haven't bought a PC from Dell, but if I paid $1600 for a PC I would expect support to come standard, since they are selling me a complete PC which includes Microsoft products. If that's the case, then the standard support should extend to those included products."

Others pointed the finger at Microsoft for not making it clear how to turn on such a simple function as reading e-mail attachments. "I think most of us here can agree that Microsoft bears the primary blame," wrote another reader. "Microsoft is notorious for not having answers for obvious questions and insane look-up terms. But it is hard to understand how Dell can charge $149 to answer a common and trivially easy question. If questions like this are costing them real money, then they should be telling Microsoft and requiring better documentation."

But a number of readers insisted that the user herself was at fault. "Not surprised by anything in this story other than she agreed to pay the ridiculous amount for that level of 'support,'" wrote one. "Anyone who has had access to the Internet for more than a week knows that you can find just about any information you need, including help with something like this. Yes, shame on Dell for making PCs from poor quality parts and having horrible support that is outsourced to another country -- putting Americans out of jobs. And, yes, shame on Microsoft for not providing better information in standard Help files, but shame on the user for not being more aggressive in finding help that does not cost an arm and a leg for such a routine function."

And those who blamed the customer came in for some criticism themselves. "I don't ever want you as my support people, no matter how good you are," wrote another reader. "I've spent years in minicomputer maintenance, desktop support and other facets of the business. And when I have a problem, it's my contention that I should be able to call the manufacturer of the PC or the software and get an answer -- immediately and for free. I should not have to hassle with digging through the Internet, hours on end, searching for an answer and then spend hours more trying to figure out how to decipher what I've just read and implement the fix, even if that's what I do for a living. They're not paying me; I'm paying them. It's time for PC and software manufacturers to wake up and realize who the customer is here."
< Brother Support Pitches Consumables | No Privacy at Hilton Hotels >


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Microsoft, OEMs, Users and Blame | 23 comments (23 topical) | Post A Comment
A solution[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#1)
by wantobe on Tue Jun 22, 2004 at 02:52:31 AM PDT

Most of the readers here probably could have fixed the lady's problem immediately, and for free, if she'd only known to ask. That's why I have a website dedicated to answer, for free, any computer questions that come along. I also encourage others to participate, because I might not be right every time.

Hopefully this post won't be deleted, but if anyone is interested in what is still a very limited site, either in asking questions or in helping to answer them (and I have some other people who help me with Mac and Linux questions) come on by Computer Questions and Answers and check it out. There hasn't to date been a lot going on, but I can handle just about any volume, at least for now, and it's all free.


Rob Miles
--
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't.
[ Reply to This ]



Thanks for your site![ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#21)
by Anonymous User on Mon Jun 28, 2004 at 09:10:02 PM PDT

I've used the above-mentioned site several times in the last year when I've run into problems with my Dell, and I am thrilled to find mention made of the site here. Why? Because the hard drive in my Dimension 8300 Bit the Big One a couple of months ago, taking my bookmarks with it; now I know where to find you again! At least with my Dell (at this point) I would rather try to solve a simple problem with (free) outside assistance, figuring that I'll probably learn a lot in the process (kind of like learning never to buy another Dell again after experiencing the biggest chain of consumer shaftings I've ever received in my life, and reading about the experiences of other similar sufferers after the fact). I won't buy a Dell again, and part of my decision is based on their near total disregard of their customers. Either Dell or Microsoft should've answered this customer's simple question. Dell may laughing all the way to the bank with this poor woman's $149, but I'd like to think that eventually their bad karma will catch up with them. When all the customers Dell has abused take their business elsewhere, who'll be cryin' in their coffe at the truckstop then, Dell, huh?

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Thanks for your endorsement[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#22)
by wantobe on Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 02:51:29 AM PDT

I appreciate the kind words, and I hope that the several times that you've used my site I've been able to help you.


Rob Miles
--
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't.
[ Parent | Reply to This ]



10 who do or don't get binary[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#23)
by lonehiker on Sun Jul 11, 2004 at 04:38:10 PM PDT

It took me a second to get this, but it was quite funny. I will be passing the comment along to other computer friends.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Buck Stops Here[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#2)
by Anonymous User on Tue Jun 22, 2004 at 11:44:11 AM PDT

My dad successfully ran a small grocery store from '47-89. Time and time again customers would come in and complain about the quality of canned soup, wrappers used for bread being too thin or thick, and hundreds of other items that he had no control over. And each time he would patiently listen, exchange the product for another or give them their money back. After college, I told him he was crazy for letting himself be taken advantage like that. It was the manufacturers or wholesalers or shippers that should bear the blame and cost. He just smiled and told me it was him who the customers gave their dollars to. While he could never compete with the chains on price, his service blew them all away!

[ Reply to This ]


Huh?[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#3)
by Mason on Tue Jun 22, 2004 at 11:49:34 AM PDT

I'm still in the camp that thinks (in this particular scenario) that the user is primarily at fault, even though Dell missed a good opportunity to do right by her.

The commenter in the last paragraph is just plain wrong, unless he would like the price of computers and software to skyrocket.  If I buy a steak, I don't expect to be able to call the store to have someone tell me how to cook it.  If I buy a car, I don't expect to be able to call the dealer and get a free answer.  That person is just unreasonable, and I wouldn't want his business.

[ Reply to This ]



(clarify..)[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#4)
by Mason on Tue Jun 22, 2004 at 11:50:51 AM PDT

I mean, the last paragraph of the original article, not any comments before mine.  :)

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


All to Blame[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#5)
by RDG on Tue Jun 22, 2004 at 01:21:21 PM PDT

Life is an endless series of finger pointing with very few willing to take responsibility for what they provide consumers. As a builder of quality computer systems, what we provide our customers is hardware integrated to form a computer - - adding operating system software. When software is "OEM," Microsoft expects the OEM to remedy consumer problems, or at least be the first contact for problem solving. And, we're glad to provide our knowledge without charge to our customers as long as they own the computer purchased from our company. And, we're glad to provide our knowledge regarding other software - - if we use it and are familiar with it. Outlook is a part of the Microsoft's Office suite and as such is a "retail" product unless the computer builder routinely installs OEM Microsoft Office as part of the "deal." Then, the system builder is responsible for being the first in line to try to resolve customer problems. We say "try" to solve software problems because it is possible that we, or Dell in this example, may not have the in-depth knowledge necessary to respond appropriately to a customer with the correct answer - - which may require more than just use of the program in question. Do all of Dell's help desk personnel use Outlook? Do they know all the possible settings? Is the customer's Outlook part of Office 97, Office 2000, Office XP, or Office 2003? Expecting the OEM to solve all software problems is normally beyond the scope of their expertise. In like manner, should Microsoft solve hardware problems for the OEM? Microsoft says it won't. Therefore, it seems reasonable that Microsoft should expect and prepare for the eventuality that someone using their products may have a question about something that just a "user" of the product may not know nor have an answer readily available. We're not supporting Dell - - in fact, we believe consumers by from Dell out of ignorance of their product and services. In this instance, it seems that everyone involved is to blame for the poor execution of their role with the problem solving of this issue. The consumer shouldn't expect the computer builder to solve software problems. Microsoft doesn't want to staff help desks for problem solving, and as always, the customer is left not knowing what to do or how to get an answer. It seems clear, though, that if one doesn't know how to use a frying pan, then it's best not to start cooking. Yes, the end user has the responsibility of determining what products can be understood and used practically. When additional knowledge is required, the manufacturer (in this case Microsoft) certainly should stand ready to satisfy a customer whether the product was purchased retail or OEM. Lacking that, we used to go to the library, now the World Wide Web, to find answers. But, most of us just go to a friend and hope they will have an answer. This means that Dell and Microsoft can't be classified as "friend," because a friend doesn't charge for their expertise. Perhaps both of these companies need to concentrate on how to be a friend, rather than an adversary to a customer.

[ Reply to This ]


It's a perception thing...[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#6)
by Anonymous User on Tue Jun 22, 2004 at 02:05:21 PM PDT

Is it possible that the industry, in an effort to sell product, has created an unreasonable expectation on the part of the customer. Does the MSN Butterfly and the Dell Dude "sell" the concept that anyone can pull this thing out of the box and use it without training (or for that matter - thinking)? Car companies put "Professional Driver - Do Not Attempt" at the bottom of their ads. Weight Loss companies put "Results Not Typical" in their ads to keep things legal. Should the computer industry put "Requires reading the book and some effort to achieve advertised results" at the bottom of their ads? Once upon a time this was implied, but based on some of the questions I get, I not so sure anymore.

[ Reply to This ]


Consumer Software Support[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#7)
by Anonymous User on Tue Jun 22, 2004 at 03:42:49 PM PDT

In the end, we get what we pay for. There is no reason that a vendor (distributor, manufacturer, retailer, etc.) cannot create and maintain a staff to explain the endless combinations and permutations of Microsoft options. Think of the complexity of the software, the limited understanding of much of the population, and the laziness of much of the rest. (Why spend 10 minutes in a book if you can make a phone call?) Now, tell me how much that level of support will add to the cost of a Dell, or Gateway, or Acme over even a year. People will tell you that they are glad to pay more for a quality product and great service. But in a price war with the razor-thin margins of the cliche, I don't think that any company who is willing to answer that level of question will survive three months. It's called self-selection. The people who want to call with a lot of questions and need to have their hand held will be the ones who buy the product with the "free" support. If 12 months of "We'll answer any question you have" adds $450 (reasonable guess) to the cost of the box, there will be few takers. If the mfg eats the $450, they'll be broke. Take your pick. Compromise: offer the buyer at time of purchase a very good price on a manual of the Dummies variety (but call it something nicer). Those who find that level of support too trivial can probably take care of themselves. Those who find even that type of manual too intimidating should probably go back to paper and pen. It's perfectly OK to write a letter, and getting to be a lost art.

[ Reply to This ]


Enough blame to go around[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#8)
by Anonymous User on Tue Jun 22, 2004 at 06:55:52 PM PDT

Everybody gets to share the blame for this.  The system manufacturer for making misleading promises and not providing adequate documentation, Microsoft for never providing adequate documentation and passing the responsibility back to the OEM using their product.  Then the end user for falling for the free lunch syndrome and not making a legitimate effort to find out.  But then she did pay for the answer although the price seems just a bit out of line.  As in criminally overpriced, but then capitalism is all about charging what the market will bear.  Caveat emptor.

[ Reply to This ]


Enough blame to go around?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#16)
by Anonymous User on Thu Jun 24, 2004 at 11:45:42 AM PDT

I agree that "Everybody gets to share the blame for this," but I believe Dell shoulders most of the blame. Dell sells PC's with pre-installed OS's that can't be deleted from the order. Documentation is as scarce today as hen's teeth. The only reason to charge separately for software support is to boost profits. When a PC used to be sold, it always came with complete support for what was pre-installed during the warrantee period. It's a case of finger pointing: Microsoft says it's the OEM's problem & the OEM doesn't want to provide free support. The consumer should have the legal option to buy a computer with no software installed, if they want it. That way, the buyer can go out & buy whatever they want. Then they'll only have to worry about 1 manufacturer for their software support.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Hey! It's my job![ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#9)
by Anonymous User on Wed Jun 23, 2004 at 06:39:50 AM PDT

You know, as a technical support/network professional, a big part of my job is to know this stuff and where to look for it when I don't. This shouldn't be the user's job. There are two principles involved here. First, a computer is a complex tool which has to be adapted to the task
    AND
the persons doing it. Can you imagine a hammer with a curved handle? There are a lot more curved branches than straight ones. This puts part of the responsibility on Microsoft for not adapting their software tool to the users. This is a simple and common problem users often encounter. Without wanting to do Ms bashing, their Outlook interface is quite poor. It's even worse in french. Second, there is the interface design principle of supporting the beginner as well as the expert. The technical support should go through 2 or 3 different levels. The first level service is often done by (well?) trained users with a good documentation system. These don't cost much and generaly use the same langage and thinking as the caller. It is absolutly idiotic to charge the user for first level help when they already paid for the 'award-winning service comes standard'. If you want a product that get the buyer approval, you have to be sure they are able to use it. I like to compare the computer and software market with the car market. Would you buy a car with an overcharge of 9% for customer service? Let's say 1,490$ for a 16,000$ car? After you buyed it? Most of the questions the people ask on 800 lines about their car are silly questions with the answers easily found in the user manual. If you buy a car, you expect service without paying for it. There is as much or more competition in car market than in computer/software one. When I buy a car, they don't say silly things like: you only buyed the ritgh to use it; we have no obligation whatsoever to give you service on the product; If you move to another city, you have to register anew and, after 3 times, you have to do it by phone or it will stop working; You have to use our fuel because we put an electronic chip in it making it illegal for anybody to make copies... When the computer/software market will compare with the car market, it will be beginning to be respectable. Until then, Mr Foster's column will always be full.

[ Reply to This ]


Often, I have the fee waived[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#10)
by Anonymous User on Wed Jun 23, 2004 at 07:27:17 AM PDT

I've always avoided buying from companies that have terrible per-incident fees from day one for support. This attitude is due, in part, to you, Ed! I've read you column for a decade, and yes, it did sink in. I've recently had experiences with both Apple and Dantz (makers of Retrospect) where I had clearly found a bug and I was clearly outside of the free 90 days of support for high-end server products. I don't need the support because I am typically running the servers in much lower-end environments than the supported user. In several cases between the two companies, I was able to call, get a technician, sometimes initially provide credit card billing information and sometimes not. In all cases, the tech didn't charge me or refunded the charge, documented the bug, and passed it on to the development team. That's how to handle a customer, no? Interestingly, Dantz called me recently to ask if I wanted an extended one-year unlimited service call plan. The cost was about $300 for the 100-user server-based backup system. Now I had to buy that level of use from them because of a mix of servers I back up, but I don't need carrier-grade support. I asked about individual call fees, which are $75. I decided against the service plan because if I really find myself stuck, $75 is a better price to pay once or twice a year.

[ Reply to This ]


Support[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#11)
by Anonymous User on Wed Jun 23, 2004 at 08:34:11 AM PDT

As a consumer of "products" I am frustrated and furious that OEMs and venders will not support their product ... after the sale. With regard to Dell ... I bought two Dell PCs [two different users geographically separated] and have not a good word to say about support [I have a lot of bad words which will not do me any good]. I will look otherwhere for PCs in the future based on the service we received.

[ Reply to This ]


Manufacturer support of OEM software[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#12)
by Anonymous User on Wed Jun 23, 2004 at 09:46:18 AM PDT

The reason that the hardware manufacturer should suppport the OEM software installed on thier products is that they usually alter some of the default settings to the point that unless you know what they have changed, even Microsoft may have trouble fixing some of the problems. The option that this user needed set may have been set by default my Microsoft, but changed by Dell. Would you know what to do in that case without a lot of research? That is why I will not buy/use OEM software! The first thing that I do with the corporate computers that I buy is wipe the hard drive and reinstall the OS.

[ Reply to This ]


Learn to Learn[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#13)
by jazhaus on Wed Jun 23, 2004 at 07:56:23 PM PDT

An anonymous poster stated "You know, as a technical support/network professional, a big part of my job is to know this stuff and where to look for it when I don't. This shouldn't be the user's job."

I also work as a technical support/network professional as well as a computer sonsultant. For my consulting job, I still use an accountant to help with my Quickbooks tasks and to verify that I am defining income and expenditures properly.

I have taught myself some basic accounting principles, but when I get stuck I pay someone who does the work for a living.

Computers are a tool for accomplishing a task. If it is not your livlihood, it is important to understand that you may need to pay for expert advice when you get stuck. It is up to the consumer to determine that value of the expertise and whether to agree on a said price.

Though the specific issue is not explained in detail, it appears to be the situation where Outlook automatically blocks insecure attachments. RDG explained that it is unrealistic to expect support to be fluent with all applications and settings with third party software.

The blocked attachments are not standard to Outlook, but part of a Microsoft security update. If the Dell system did not ship with SP1 on XP, then a tech with knowledge of the system, still would not be aware of the setting to change (there actually isn't one in Outlook only in Outlook Express.)

The user needs to accept that he/she will need to pay someone for help, or he/she can learn to search for solutions on the Internet or in online documentation. My income dictates that for my accounting needs, I will do most of my research, and only consult the accountant for confitmation, or for things I truly cannot resolve on my own.

I offer to teach my customers to help themselves. I show them how to use google groups to search for answers. searching the terms "outlook blocked attachments" locates an excellent solution page at slipstick.com. Those whose money is worth more than their time appreciate the explanation, those whose time is more valuable just ask to have the problem solved.



[ Reply to This ]


Charge her.[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#14)
by timthechef on Wed Jun 23, 2004 at 09:26:22 PM PDT

To me, it's a matter of economics.

Dell should charge the lady for the service. If they don't, they'll surely pass the cost of providing service to other customers. Can you imagine if anyone who bought a Dell PC could pick up the phone, call the 800 number and spend an hour chatting with a support person "free of charge?"

There is a cost to providing service. And most businesses have it in their profit model to pass a large chunk of that on to their customer base.

When insurance companies spend millions defending themselves against insurance fraud, who ultimately pays? The insurance company's customers.

When WalMart has to devote a portion (albeit, a small portion) of their revenues to offset the theft that occurs in their stores every day, the prices of all of their goods goes up. Maybe not so you'd notice in the price of a bathroom rug, but the increase does find it's way to the customer.

In like manner, when this lady calls Dell for support, there is a cost to provide the support. Dell's customers will pay that cost. They'll pay for it in a decreased level of service across the board, higher prices, slower deployment of enhancements across the Dell system of processes and a thousand other ways.

Charge the lady.

Now, if something is "broken" (I'll leave the definition open), then there might be an argument for Dell to step up to the plate and help out. Even if it means absorbing the cost. But, in this case, there wasn't anything faulty about how the box operated. It was a flag in an app on the PC that was flipped. That doesn't constitute a "free" customer service call. Tim

[ Reply to This ]


charge her[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#15)
by Anonymous User on Thu Jun 24, 2004 at 09:19:05 AM PDT

You make a fair argument for charging the lady. But $149 is way out of line.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Computers are intimidating for many newbies[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#17)
by Anonymous User on Thu Jun 24, 2004 at 01:19:39 PM PDT

As a support person myself who nows runs the IT "department" it's not entirely fiar to blame new users for not knowing any better.

Computers and technology are still a scary concept for some (many) who are not in the field; much of us readers are in the PC field in some capacity.  

While I have endured lengthy, frustrating conversations with users who haven't taken the time to learn the difference between the monitor and the tower, it is part and parcel with our jobs.

I just think of some items that are essential to me, like a car.  If I was chastised for not knowing how to perform certain tasks that my mechanic or machinically inclined friends can (new brakes, replace a radiator, etc) it wouldn't be fair.  We all have a forte and should understand that while computers are more than just luxuries in today's households, many people are still intimidated by them.

[ Reply to This ]



Ridiculous[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#18)
by CGuy on Fri Jun 25, 2004 at 03:42:02 AM PDT

People need to get over the idea thatjust because someone sells them a computer, they then have lifetime responsibility to provide free, unlimited support for that computer. People don't expect this from any other product, such as a car or a television. My ex father in law could never remember how to program his VCR, but he didn't expect the store that sold it to him to tell him, he called me for help. I don't expect the Ford dealer to provide me with detailed instructions on how to install a lift kit on my Expedition, and then fix it when I break something, for free, but my customers call and want me to tell them how to install the interface card for a digital video recorder they bought at a garage sale, and then half of them want me to make it work, for free, when they can't. Ridiculous. Take some personal responsibility, and realize that there is a value and consequently a cost, for support frm someone more knowledgable than yourself.

[ Reply to This ]


Expectations[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#20)
by dliesse on Mon Jun 28, 2004 at 09:01:43 AM PDT

You're correct that Ford shouldn't have to come to your rescue for a botched attempt at changing a lift gate. What we're talking about here, though, is the equivalent of changing the time on the dashboard clock.

Many years ago when I was in tech support, our rule of thumb was any support on documented features was 100% billable. If it should have been in the documentation but wasn't, we could hardly expect the end user to have any idea of how to do whatever it is.

In the case under discussion, if no documentation was provided (either hard copy or via software), then the support should be provided without charge -- whether from Dell or from Microsoft is another matter which I already addressed in the original thread. If documentation was provided, then the techie's first question should be whether or not the user has looked at it, and, if not, the next step is to advise that the call will be billable.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Another solution?[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#19)
by Anonymous User on Fri Jun 25, 2004 at 07:14:15 AM PDT

A couple of years ago I gave my brother and his wife a Dell computer as a gift. Not being very computer literate and having no space for it at the time, they left it boxed up. Last year they set it up. As soon as he logged on to MSN, it started shutting itself off. It turned out that it had picked up a virus. The computer would shut itself off before we could download Norton anti-virus. I did a little search on the web and got the solution by e-mail: disable the Remote Procedure Call service to prevent Windows from shutting down. Now I can't even remember how I found this. The irony is that the solution did not come from Dell OR Microsoft. It came from... Gateway Computers! I have never bought anything from Gateway. Think about this: Here is poor Gateway giving away advice on how to fix a problem with a Dell computer that they never even sold! When I hear about Dell gouging someone $149 to "fix" a minor problem with a computer that they sold, I'll think about this incident. I use a Dell computer, too; but I won't call them for service.

[ Reply to This ]


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