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EULA Nasties

By Ed Foster, Section Columns
Posted on Thu May 13, 2004 at 12:23:02 AM PDT

Mirror, mirror, on the wall, who has the ugliest EULA terms of all? Just in case the mirror's not talking, we're going to leave it up to you to decide in my latest weblog poll.


As the first step in our quest for fair terms, I asked readers to help me collect the worst license agreement language they've seen. Not wanting to be the only judge of this reverse beauty contest, I've winnowed it down to a dirty half dozen. Now it's up to you to look them over and cast your vote for the unfairest of them all in the poll in the lower right-hand column of this page.

Quite a few readers pointed out what I call classic sneakwrap terms - the ones where the license says you have to keep checking the vendor's website to see if they've made any changes. But one reader pointed out how the Wal-Mart Credit Card usage agreement takes this concept one better. At least you don't have to keep checking, because you've already agreed to all future changes:

By using the Site or downloading materials from the Site, you agree to abide by the terms and conditions set forth in this notice as well as all other policies described in the Site. If you do not agree to abide by these terms and conditions or any future terms and conditions, please do not use the Site or download materials from the Site.

I was rather surprised by the number of readers who pointed to Pinnacle Systems and the license agreement for its Studio Version 9 product. Several parts of the EULA raised questions (and unfortunately I can't find an HTML version of the whole thing), but its provision for automatic downloading of DRM upgrades was what seemed to trouble readers the most:

You acknowledge and agree that in order to protect the integrity of certain third party content, Pinnacle and/or its licensors may provide for Software security related updates that will be automatically downloaded and installed on your computer. Such security related updates may impair the Software (and any other software on your computer which specifically depends on the Software) including disabling your ability to copy and/or play "secure" content, i.e. content protected by digital rights management.

Speaking of DRM, some of the worst terms we've seen over the last year have come from the pay-per-tunes online music services. Considering that the whole idea of these services is to give people a legit alternative to peer-to-peer music downloads, I'd have to say the most hypocritical provision is this one from Musicmatch's terms of service:

It is your responsibility, not Musicmatch's, to ensure that any material that you record on CDs using the Musicmatch Jukebox CD Recording function does not violate anyone's copyright. Please note that there may be more than one copyright involved in any song--the lyrics, the music and the performance, for example, may each have a separate copyright. You are responsible for getting any necessary permission and paying any necessary licensing fees for the music or other material you choose to record. If you violate the copyright laws, there may be fines or criminal charges brought against you, even if you don't get any commercial benefit from the illegal copies. You agree to hold Musicmatch harmless from your violation of copyright laws by your use of the CD Recorder.

Of course, no list of EULA nasties would be complete without a contribution from those fun-loving legal eagles in Redmond. Readers had plenty of Microsoft candidates, including some of the old classics like "no disparaging Microsoft." But sentiment seemed to run strongest over the anti-Open Source language in its licenses for its developer products, such as the Microsft Visual C++ Toolkit 2003 EULA:

If you use the Redistributables, then in addition to your compliance with the applicable distribution requirements described for the Redistributables, the following also applies. Your license rights to the Redistributables are conditioned upon your not (a) creating derivative works of the Redistributables in any manner that would cause the Redistributables in whole or in part to become subject to any of the terms of an Excluded License; and (b) distributing the Redistributables (or derivative works thereof) in any manner that would cause the Redistributables to become subject to any of the terms of an Excluded License. An "Excluded License" is any license which requires as a condition of use, modification and/or distribution of software subject to the Excluded License, that such software or other software combined and/or distributed with such software (x) be disclosed or distributed in source code form; (y) be licensed for the purpose of making derivative works; or (z) be redistributable at no charge.

One company that can almost match Microsoft for its history of sneakwrap achievement is McAfee. After all, it's the only company that's ever defended a EULA-based "no publishing reviews of our product without permission" censorship clause in court. (Fortunately, McAfee lost that one.) And more recently we saw how it uses "evergreen" clauses in its license agreements to re-subscribe customers automatically. But one part of the McAfee EULA I'd missed was this declaration that their privacy policy is meaningless:

The Company publishes a privacy policy on its web site and may amend such policy from time to time in its sole discretion. You should refer to the Company's privacy policy prior to agreeing to this Agreement for a more detailed explanation of how your information will be stored and used by the Company. The Company's privacy policy is provided as a courtesy for informational purposes only and contains statement of its present guidelines and goals with respect to collection, retention and use of data the Company may obtain from your purchase or use of the Software. The Company does not make any and hereby disclaims to the maximum extent allowed by law any and all covenants, representations and warranties with respect to its compliance with the statements of intent contained in the Company privacy policy.

But sneaky sneakwrap is one area where the little software companies don't always have to take a backseat to the big guys. Since Man's Best Friend Software has now removed the remarkable prohibition against criticizing the company that I recently examined, I will instead suggest we consider the anti-chargeback provision in the license for the company's The Breeder Standard 2003 product:

You agree, if purchasing by credit card or charge card, that you permanently and irrevocably waive any and all right to cause a "chargeback" (that is, a disputed, reversed or contested charge) against this purchase for any reason whatsoever against Company or other reseller of this license, effective as soon as you receive registration code(s) from the Company, open the envelope containing the program disk or otherwise install or use the Software. You agree that, if you institute such a "chargeback", it constitutes a material violation of this license, and damages Company in ways impossible to calculate, and with long-term adverse effects to the Company. Therefore, you agree to pay, and Company agrees to accept in compromise, for each chargeback you may issue or directly or indirectly cause to be issued against company, the amount of EIGHT THOUSAND DOLLARS ($8,000.00) to Company (or the party selling you this license), as liquidated damages and not as a penalty. You expressly confess, in the event of such a "chargeback", that such chargeback constitutes fraud and confess such fraud. You agree to pay all costs incurred by company or the seller of this license in collecting these amounts.

So now it's up to you to cast your vote in the righthand column, and post your comments below as to why you voted the way you did. Before we take on the more complex task of deciding what we think fair terms should like, let's see what we think is the unfairest of them all.

< SpamCop Fights Back | Used News: Lies, Damned Lies, and the RIAA >


Display: Sort:
EULA Nasties | 125 comments (125 topical) | Post A Comment
The Microsoft Licence...[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#1)
by Anonymous User on Thu May 13, 2004 at 06:03:50 AM PDT

Microsoft's licence isn't as bad as all that; it doesn't permit you to make claims against Microsoft's copyrighted materials. It's simplified by the fact that the GNU GPL (the main targeted licence) has what are considered "Operating System" exceptions, and Microsoft's redistributables are necessary components for the platform.

[ Reply to This ]


yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#146)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:40:29 PM PDT

出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


How can I choose just one?[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#2)
by Anonymous User on Thu May 13, 2004 at 09:03:32 AM PDT

I voted, but how can I make a choice. As I read down the page, each one was outrageous.

[ Reply to This ]


All are bad[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#15)
by Anonymous User on Thu May 13, 2004 at 09:51:17 AM PDT

I have to agree that it was very difficult to choose which one was the worst. At least some of the EULAs were fairly easy to understand, but others require that you hire a lawyer to tell you that you got screwed!

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#148)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:40:50 PM PDT

出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Wanted to select all[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#66)
by comics on Tue May 18, 2004 at 11:36:34 AM PDT

A difficult choice indeed. Each one tries to outdo the others with lists of things you can't do. Reminds me of the old song "but mommy didn't tell me not to paint the baby" where a little girl sings about her baby sitting job and all the things that mommy told her not to do. When are software developers going to allow us to do something productive?

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Not Man's best friend ...[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#3)
by Anonymous User on Thu May 13, 2004 at 09:04:57 AM PDT

That one is so patently illegal and unenforcable that there is no point in objecting to it.

[ Reply to This ]


Re: Not Man's Best Friend[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#11)
by Anonymous User on Thu May 13, 2004 at 09:47:17 AM PDT

I really think you've got to give them some credit when you consider the "what were they thinking" angle. They sound to me like they just want to protect themselves against customers who buy the product with a credit card, install it, and then return it and dispute the charge.

My company was burnt by a customer who wouldn't come to our location to look at the product. We agreed to truck it out to him, and he could choose to not keep it, but either way he would have to pay for the trucking. Sloppy procedures by the third party trucker ended up with the customer successfully disputing the charge for the trucking.

The copy of his dispute letter to the credit card company makes it apparent that this guy attempts to dispute every charge he thinks he can get cancelled. I would have loved to have had a legally enforceable $8000 charge for retaliation.



[ Parent | Reply to This ]



MBFS[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#52)
by Anonymous User on Sat May 15, 2004 at 07:23:46 AM PDT

True, software companies need a means to protect themselves against users that install & then return the software w/out de-installing. Advances have been made, it is possible for these programs to notify the distributor whenever launched.

What MBFS does is beyond this, JT is prepared to dispute/sue anyone who reverses a charge for lack of product. They bought out RCI in 2000, took almost a year to begin work on CompuPed Millenium edition. Original release date scheduled for Aug 2002. They are STILL taking "presale orders" for this product! Shouldn't customers who previously contracted to purchase this "vapor-ware" be allowed to cancel at some point?

Isn't there a law that says if a distributor is unable to ship w/in XX days that the customer MUST be offered the option to request a refund?

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



No way on phone home...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#63)
by John Tamburo from MBFS on Mon May 17, 2004 at 03:00:00 PM PDT

I will not put in any kind of "phone home" mechanism into my installed programs. That is why Pinnacle is getting justly flamed here.

This is all academic, I am removing the chargeback clause. As far as the CPed Millennium goes, we're working hard and are very close to completion.

Thanks
John

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



MBFS[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#101)
by Anonymous User on Tue Jun 01, 2004 at 08:07:53 PM PDT

I have one friend whose credit card was charged for MBFS CompuPed (not millieum) two years ago this spring (2002) who has still never received the product. Since MBFS gave them a "wait 6 weeks for shipping date" their credit card company refused to charge back. So they are out the money and have no product. I was a long time CompuPed user and supporter (10+ years). After Larry Ritter died my distribution floppy disk died - this is needed to keep a CompuPed installation going, RCI CompuPed would ask for the distribution disk on a regular schedule of roughly every 200 uses. MBFS told me I would have to repurchase the program. RCI supplied dup distribution disks for $20 when the floppy died. Of course you had to return the old one.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


No way.[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#102)
by Anonymous User on Tue Jun 01, 2004 at 08:18:02 PM PDT

You do not need to purchase a new program. In fact for all Compuped version 4 users we will send a disk image via email at no charge. If you have Compuped 3 with the key disk, we have no means of making a new disk, but will update you to version 4 at no charge. Please contact our support department at once because what you say is totally alien to me.

Thanks,
John Tamburo

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#137)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 06:39:43 PM PDT

出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Notify the Distributor?!?!?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#80)
by Anonymous User on Wed May 19, 2004 at 01:19:42 PM PDT

I'd hardly call having software notify the distributor every time I use it an advance.  Depending how far it's taken, a clause like that would make these other EULAs seem like a walk in the park.  While we're at it, why not have software send hard drive listings when they report in?  Keystroke data?  And of course, no one would mind being forced to connect to the internet to use their word processor, for example.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#136)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 06:39:41 PM PDT

出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Mans best Friend / Wal Mart[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#4)
by Anonymous User on Thu May 13, 2004 at 09:12:48 AM PDT

Mans Best Friend is so blantent, but Wal Mart is a very close 2nd, and I almost voted for it - I don't think it could hold up in court either, but with the judges we have now days, it is hard to say. Is there anywhere on the planet one can go and not have to watch your back all the time? Where life is fair? I am getting tired of it.

[ Reply to This ]


What a tough set of choices![ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#5)
by Anonymous User on Thu May 13, 2004 at 09:20:18 AM PDT

Man's Best Friend's terms obviously won't fly in court as they tell you to admit to commiting a crime if you dispute their fee through your credit card company. It looks like some middle-aged mindless exec wannabe read up on some law books and then made up some really stupid terms out of thin air. Whatever happened to customer satisfaction? Obviously, MBF is no one's friend and is only interested in stealing money from people. With these terms, they could sell you bags of dog feces and you'ld have no recourse. The inclusion of terms like these tells me that MBF product is nothing more than a scam. A company selling a _real_ product and hoping for repeat business from it's customers would want to work with their customer's to resolve disputes. Only scammers do hit and run sales. I'm tempted to buy their product on my credit card just to dispute the charge and see how well I can then publicize the resulting court case. Has anyone reported these scammers to their respective AGs?, local TV stations, consumer protection groups? WhiteFang

[ Reply to This ]


To add injury to insult...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#27)
by Anonymous User on Thu May 13, 2004 at 11:46:32 AM PDT

I recently downloaded the latest trial version of MBF's flagship software. Installed it, tried to run it -- damned thing had most of the options greyed out, so it wasn't even usable as a demo. I wasn't even able to enter any data. The interface wasn't, um, "built to expectations for mature software" anyway, so I didn't see any reason to keep it around, and uninstalled it.

Then I discovered that either the uninstaller took part of the Borland database engine with it, or MBF's installer overwrote some relevant files with bad versions, so now I have to reinstall Paradox to get that to run again.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



I tried it too.[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#38)
by Anonymous User on Fri May 14, 2004 at 07:22:53 AM PDT

I had none of these problems. Did you contact their support line for help?

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Tech support?![ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#91)
by Anonymous User on Wed May 26, 2004 at 02:45:16 PM PDT

No, because after reading stuff here AND on their site, I became convinced that I didn't want anything to do with this company, even if it were the best software in the world... it'll never touch any machine of mine again.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


No scam here.[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#39)
by Anonymous User on Fri May 14, 2004 at 07:38:14 AM PDT

We instituted the above clause after several people did exactly as described above: They would buy the product, install it, return it and then still use the product. For that reason we instituted an ALL SALES FINAL policy. The amount of damages is determined by taking 1/3 the amount of the average chargeback reserve that credit card companies impose upon merchants WITHOUT NOTICE if chargebacks go past a certain (VERY LOW) level. As it is reasonably calculated, it is not an unenforceable penalty clause. Moreover, there is nothing in the merchant agreement to prohibit a merchant from recovering damages from a BAD FAITH chargeback. On a separate thread, we decided after criticism to remove several clauses from our web site EULA. After reviewing a posting from that thread, we are also going to remove the anti-competition clauses from the software license agreement. We will also remove the confession of fraud clause from the non-chargeback provisions of this license. As I told Ed Foster in a phone interview some eight years ago, credit card merchant processors impose draconian terms upon merchants. Some of these include that we have to "abide by Mastercard and Visa regulations," and they refused to provide a copy of those regulations to merchants until WalMart sued and won! Chargeback reserves when imposed suddenly drop a merchant's revenue to zero until the processor collects the entire reserve amount. Friends of mine have been similarly victimized. Finally, mail order and online merchants can get charged back for up to three years after a transaction. Even if we dispute the chargeback and win, we get hit with a $20 fee, and the cardholder can dispute again, and we get another $20 fee. After that, if we want to try to recover via the system, we have to pay a $150 fee to have an arbitration. Our product is $109! So a cardholder can abuse the federal law to truly stick it to a merchant. Hence our defensive action. So to close, we will remove the non-compete and the fraud confession clauses. However, all sales are final with our product. We will retain the damages clause. A notice will post to our web site by Monday with the altered license agreement, and will be sent to all customers as soon as possible. Thanks John Tamburo

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Still flawed, John[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#44)
by Anonymous User on Fri May 14, 2004 at 10:43:33 AM PDT

John, even with the changes you describe, your license language presumes that every chargeback is a "bad faith" chargeback. If that were the case, the chargeback system wouldn't exist. You presume yourself, your employees, your bank, and all of your customers to be infallible.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


All Sales are final[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#46)
by John Tamburo from MBFS on Fri May 14, 2004 at 01:26:39 PM PDT

I see your point but we have to have some way to enforce the all sales final policy. I am open to suggestions. As has been shown in the previous thread, and here, I do listen to reasonable ideas.

All I want to do is prevent the abuse of the FCBA to my detriment, and if such an abuse occurs, to recover enough to make myself whole. Let me make it clear that the scenario described elsewhere has happened. One person charged back, but two years later was sending out pedigrees for new puppies that were generated by my software. That person paid $0 for the product; in fact I paid what was $15 at the time plus was out the postage on the order too.

If all sales are final, then is there any reason to charge back that falls within good faith?

Thanks,
John

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



All sales final?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#48)
by Bryan Bytehead on Fri May 14, 2004 at 04:42:55 PM PDT

Don't take credit cards. Take checks only. Wait for them to clear before shipping the software.

Because if you take plastic, you really are at the mercy of the credit card processors. And while you can claim that all sales are final, no returns, no refunds, legally, the challenge is going to be your click-through-maybe-as-good-as-a-verbal-agreement EULA over the signed agreement between the card holder and the card processor. And I would also add to that the signed agreement that you have with credit card processors.

I'd be real interested in hearing how many times you've gone to court over this and won. But I don't expect to.

And if not being able to sell as much product then because nobody wants to wait for the processing time and/or the hassle of writing the check and waiting for it to clear, well, you're the one that decided to cover his hind end completely.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Two minor points:[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#57)
by Anonymous User on Sat May 15, 2004 at 02:36:01 PM PDT

These terms are not offered in sneakwrap, but rather in the installer, where the user has to choose to click yes or no.

And unfortunately I have had to sue over one truly egregious violation. In that case the court upheld the clause over a motion to dismiss, finding it to be a lawful clause. The motion failed and the defendant settled. No I was not greedy, I just made sure I was made whole since I did not get the reserve slapped on me.

Thanks,
John Tamburo

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#144)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:40:13 PM PDT

出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Provide a full demo[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#49)
by tscoff on Fri May 14, 2004 at 05:53:56 PM PDT

John,

Why don't you provide a demo version of your software that is 100% functional for a set period and then after that period doesn't allow your potential customer to create any new documents?  I'm distributing a software product using exactly that technique.  That way there is no reason for anyone to buy my product and request a refund.  They have a fully functional demo with no disabled features for a limited time period so they can't claim that they didn't get to try it out completely.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



We do have a demo[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#56)
by Anonymous User on Sat May 15, 2004 at 02:27:56 PM PDT

Hi, we do have a 14-day free trial for all of our installed products, and it is 100% fully functional. That is one reason why we have the ALL SALES FINAL policy, because we offer a fair opportunity to review before purchase.

for TBS .NET we do have a discount code that let's the customer use it for 99 cents for the first month, and they of course can cancel at any time. We're working up a "sandbox" version of .NET that will be free and will let people tinker around as often as they wish but not add any animals to the program..

Thanks,
John

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#142)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:39:43 PM PDT

出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Sue them or ignore them[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#54)
by Anonymous User on Sat May 15, 2004 at 02:18:20 PM PDT

John, Instead of having ridiculous terms in your agreement that would cause any sane individual to refuse to do business with you, you should take one of the more rational business approaches. First, if they are still using your system, you can sue them for copyright infringement. They have no license, and copyright law provides for statutory damages, which can be far greater than actual. Just ask the RIAA. I think it is $150,000 per violation, and guess what, you actually get to go after the person who damaged you instead of your innocent customers. Or, like most normal business folks, you can just move on, recognizing that everyone gets stolen from occasionally. It is called a cost of doing business. Retailers have shoplifting, software sales have copyright theft.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


I understand your irritation, but...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#61)
by Anonymous User on Sun May 16, 2004 at 02:08:57 PM PDT

"Let me make it clear that the scenario described elsewhere has happened. One person charged back, but two years later was sending out pedigrees for new puppies that were generated by my software. That person paid $0 for the product; in fact I paid what was $15 at the time plus was out the postage on the order too."
What percentage of your sales does this person make up? Certainly nobody likes to be ripped off, and seeing a person continue to use a product he hasn't paid for is irritating. But you come across as so focused on the few cases of fraud that you don't even notice the genuine sales. And you come across as more concerned about preventing fraud than catering to the honest people who want to buy your product. I definitely wouldn't buy your product with its absurd EULA; why should I give up my right to dispute the charges when I don't know what I'm getting from you?

A transaction takes trust on both sides. What you seem to have forgotten is that most of your sales will be to different people; just because one person rips you off doesn't mean the next one is more likely to. As a customer, when I see these kind of terms in an EULA, it tells me that the merchant doesn't trust me even though he doesn't even know me yet. Why would I want to buy from someone like that?

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OK, I will take the leap of faith.[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#62)
by John Tamburo from MBFS on Mon May 17, 2004 at 07:31:53 AM PDT

Effective immediately the liquidated damages clause against chargebacks is stricken. I will go ahead and post up a modified license agreement to all customers within 24 hours.

Thanks
John Tamburo

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Thank you...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#81)
by Anonymous User on Wed May 19, 2004 at 02:38:45 PM PDT

I feel it's appropriate to thank you for being rational. It's seems(to me) that it's a rare thing to see a company respond to public feedback(actually make relevant, signficant changes) within such a fast timeframe. Thank you. -C. Wolff wmax@linaeum.com

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Value received usually justifies payment[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#67)
by comics on Tue May 18, 2004 at 12:05:09 PM PDT

Most people (not all) don't mind paying for something if it is worth it. Many mail order houses established their reputation by guaranteeing that if, at any time during the life of one of their products, you determined that it did not meet your expectations, they would immediately and without discourse refund your money. You didn't even have to return the original packaging. And you got to determine what the life of the product was expected to be.

Was that a strong argument for dealing with them? You bet. Did some people take advantage of them? Most likely. So why did the mail order houses do it? They had to compete with retailers out there that provided extras: personal service is probably the biggest extra, but other things like being able to view and test drive products at retailers and the ability to get the product immediately off the shelf also played a part. Most of the big mail order houses profited big time from this attitude, and made it difficult for anybody who wanted to compete with them.

The point is: if you have satisfied customers, they don't mind paying and in fact will keep coming back for more. Anyone who is not satisfied should not be a customer, period. If your product doesn't keep them smiling, try to help them find another vendor, but above all, don't encourage them to spread the word that you can't or shouldn't be dealt with. For those who continue to use your product after you have given their money back, treat them like the charity cases they are, and write them off to the "good will" asset side of your balance sheet. You have to price your product based on the customers you have that want you to keep their money and have you stay in business. If you can't do that, find another way to earn your keep.

There will always be a group of people out there that figure out a way to take advantage of others and will go to any extreme to do so. They have grown used to the idea that the world owes them a living, and will always be limited in what they can achieve because they are so focused on getting something for nothing.

Why punish the people who want you to succeed and are willing to pay for it?

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#143)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:39:46 PM PDT

出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


MBFS[ Parent |