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License to Spy

By Ed Foster, Section The Gripelog
Posted on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 10:01:57 PM PDT

Since we're always on the lookout for nasty EULA terms, we should note a couple that spyware expert Ben Edelman discovered in his recent analysis of the Claria license agreement. Claria -- also known as Gator, the GAIN Network and the "don't call us spyware, we're adware" folks -- puts some interesting restrictions on its end used ... I mean, end users.


In his Nov. 29th report, Edelman says the Claria EULA as presented by the current Kazaa installer is a whopping 5,936 words. Nearly 3,000 words in, the license states that:

"You agree that you will not use, or encourage others to use, any unauthorized means for the removal of the GAIN AdServer, or any GAIN-Supported Software from a computer."

It turns out that the only authorized means for removing any of the Gator-related software is through the Windows Add/Remove Programs menu. As Edelman points out, what this means is that Claria is trying to make it a violation of their license to use spyware detection programs like Ad-Aware, SpyBot and Web Sweeper to remove the Gator software and associated applications. "So long as consumers are (supposedly) choosing to run Gator software, Gator vigorously defends user choice." Edelman writes. "But when a consumer chooses to use third-party software to remove Gator, Gator instead specifically prohibits that choice."

A little further on in the EULA is a term that appears aimed at Edelman himself as well as other spyware researchers. It reads:

"Any use of a packet sniffer or other device to intercept or access communications between GP and the GAIN AdServer is strictly prohibited."

Edelman and other researchers have used packet sniffers to study the behavior of the Gator software in the past, so this term could be an effort by Claria to stifle its critics. "Gator might be pleased to stop users and researchers from knowing the personal information Gator transmits, tracking the prevalence of Gator's software, finding Gator's security holes, and analyzing what ads Gator shows where," Edelman writes. "But should Gator be able to achieve these results merely by adding an extra sentence to its license agreement?"

Of course, these terms are made all the worse by the fact that most of Claria's "customers" don't even realize they have the software until they find themselves drowning in pop-up ads. Over-reaching EULA terms are bad enough when they come from companies that you are intentionally doing business with. And to forbid users to use other software or to look at the data being transmitted by their own computers is something no company should be allowed to do, much less one that clearly deserves the closest scrutiny.

< HP Doesn't Stand for Helpful People | Symantec Symptoms >


Display: Sort:
License to Spy | 22 comments (22 topical) | Post A Comment
Please look into your advertising[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#1)
by wantobe on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 03:17:51 AM PDT

Ed, I fully back your supporting this site with targeted ads as I want this site to continue to provide the powerful voice that it does. However, in most cases the ads are ridiculously inappropriate. I know they are targeted at keywords in the articles, which means that whichever company is being ranted against is also getting free advertising. Since most of the readers here are savvy enough to know how the ads work, and aren't likely to click on an ad from a bad advertisor, it doesn't seem to be much of a problem, but why bother with the ads? We aren't going to click through, so you don't even get the credit for running them.

Worse, today's article about Gator displays ads for programs that supposedly remove Gator from a system. That's fine on the surface, but if you look into the programs that are being offered, it turns out that some are just as bad in regards to spyware as Gator is. Of the four advertised, only Giant Antispyware is listed at Spyware Warrior as being a legitimate product; two are specifically listed as rogue/suspect.

Ed, again I don't mind you using ads to support the site, but isn't there some way you can make sure legitimate ads get displayed, even if not related to the articles? They'd be more effective than what you currently have going.


Rob Miles
--
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't.
[ Reply to This ]



But these ads...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#4)
by Anonymous User on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 06:23:09 AM PDT

... especially the "Gator Removal Software" ads are wonderfully appropriate to this piece. (altho I can't fathom why anyone would want Gator on their computer in the first place :) )

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


They aren't appropriate...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#6)
by wantobe on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 04:35:27 AM PDT

if they are just as bad as Gator itself is. My point is that in most cases the ads simply aren't going to get clicked, so they don't really support Ed's site at all. And in this case, two of the ads are for known spyware, and a third one is suspicious. If they get clicked by someone niaive enough (which is admittedly unlikely with Ed's general readership, but still possible) it might help suppor the site, but at what cost?


Rob Miles
--
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't.
[ Parent | Reply to This ]



The very calibre[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#7)
by Anonymous User on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 09:02:32 AM PDT

of Ed's readers make the ads meaningless. Secondly, they aren't pop up ads, they are designed as part of Ed's page specifically. Granted, they're parsing of Ed's text may suck in terms what ads they present, but still... I make it a point to NEVER click an ad and don't allow ads to affect my shopping habits, the same should go for everyone, even the dumb. You will never get rid of ads, it's sickening yes, but advertising is everywhere and it's out of control. The only hope is to let these companies advertised know WHY you aren't doing business with them, otherwise the ad explosion will continue....

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Re: They aren't appropriate[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#8)
by Ed Foster on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 12:09:20 PM PDT

I must say I don't quite understand what the objection is. These are Google contextual ads -- sometimes the ones that are displayed are fairly appropriate, sometimes they are way off the mark. (My site is understandably a little harder for the ad servers to figure out than most.) But I haven't seen any ads here that look like spyware -- they mostly appear to be spyware removal. So what is it that bothers you about them? -- Ed Foster

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Re: They aren't appropriate[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#9)
by wantobe on Sun Dec 05, 2004 at 04:39:24 AM PDT

Originally, my problem with these ads in particular was that two were listed at Spyware Warrior (http://www.spywarewarrior.com/rogue_anti-spyware.htm ) as rogue or suspect (Spyhunter and Adware Spy). Since then, I've discovered that they've moved Spyhunter off of the "bad" list because the company has stopped the most obnoxious of their advertisements. They still don't recommend the product, but it's not considered one of the bad products. Adware Spy is still considered rogue, however.

My point was that the ads usually seem to be directed towards the companies that are targeted in a particular article. That means you're unlikely to get many click throughs for them, therefore the site isn't getting supported the way it could with better placed ads.

However, if you get credit just for having the ads up even when you don't get click-throughs, then I'm all for it, and I apologize for the original complaint. If you're ranting about HP and getting revenue from HP ads that aren't going to generate even one click-through, it's good irony.


Rob Miles
--
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't.
[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Re: Re: They aren't appropriate[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#10)
by Ed Foster on Sun Dec 05, 2004 at 11:24:42 AM PDT

I'll grant you it often seems incongruous that the ads are offering products from a company about which I'm reporting reader gripes. But even then, the ads may not be inappropriate for everyone who comes to the site. The ads are usually from third party suppliers, not the company itself. It's possible those third party suppliers could be a source of help for those readers who find that page because they're having the same problem readers are griping about. At least that's the theory.

I'm certainly open to considering alternatives, or getting rid of the ads altogether, so if other readers have strong feelings about this, I'd like to hear them. It's not a huge source of revenue. On the other hand, at least it doesn't require me to spend any of my time selling ads, which I don't want to do. So any suggestions would be welcome.

Ed Foster



[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Suggestion for Google, maybe...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#12)
by Reziac on Mon Dec 06, 2004 at 10:36:42 AM PDT

Apparently however the ads are being delivered, they're invisible in my preferred old Netscape 3.04 (but there is something screwy with the table structure on some of your pages, and that might be hiding it). And to think here I suggested text ads, if you must have ads!

As to the Google-feed textads not being appropriate: ISTM it would be relatively simple for Google to set it up so those using 'em could have "block advertiser" and "allow advertiser" lists, both by advertiser name AND by keyword (since keywords like "Gator" tend to collect nothing but junkware ads). This would prevent "inappropriate content" from being fed to your site, and if everyone gets on the bandwagon, could have a very negative effect on ads by scumware merchants who masquerade as legitimate products.

This would also help prevent dilution of the effect of legit Google TextAds.

[I like that idea so much, I'm going off to suggest it to Google even as we speak. :)
~REZ~
[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Re: Suggestion for Google, maybe...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#14)
by Ed Foster on Mon Dec 06, 2004 at 03:42:09 PM PDT

Google does have a way of blocking specific URLs. But since the ads are usually from third party resellers, it doesn't make much of a difference. And blocking ads related to particular keywords would defeat the whole purpose of contextual advertising. -- Ed

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Re: Suggestion for Google, maybe...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#17)
by Anonymous User on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 01:44:13 PM PDT

That's an over-extension of your argument, Ed. While blocking a multitude of key words would defeat the purpose, Reziac's point about excluding PARTICULAR key words is appropriate. Particular key words are going to always return junk ads; being able to nullify the results on those key words would be useful.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Gripeline Ads[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#11)
by Anonymous User on Mon Dec 06, 2004 at 10:21:41 AM PDT

I had no idea that the site even had ads. I hope I'm not missing anything.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


I don't see any ads...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#19)
by Anonymous User on Thu Dec 09, 2004 at 09:31:25 AM PDT

Seriously, I don't see ads on this site, nor on most others. Mozilla offers this nifty little privacy setting where you can tell it to load only images from the same server as the page that called it. Voila...no more third-party ads in my browser. You can further extend this convenience by adding specific sites or domains to the iamge block/allow list. So, I always see the images on CNN, but not their ads.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Bad link[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#2)
by Anonymous User on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 03:30:53 AM PDT

The link to the Edelman article is:
http://www.benedelman.org/news/112904-1.html

[ Reply to This ]


Firewalls, Proxies, Routers[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#3)
by Fushigi on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 05:22:40 AM PDT

"device to intercept or access communications"

Perhaps my interpretation is a bit more liberal, but firewalls, proxy servers, and routers fit this description. They are all "devices" that "intercept" communications to determine if data should flow and if so how it is to be routed. All network devices "access" the communications; even the lowly free-after-rebate hub/switch/router. Are ISPs in default violation if their users have Claria software installed?

Assuming Claria has more equipment than a single system direct-connected to the internet, they are violating their own EULA!

[ Reply to This ]



Firewalls, Proxies, Routers[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#13)
by Anonymous User on Mon Dec 06, 2004 at 11:32:01 AM PDT

Well, you don't think they would be stupid enough to use their own software, do you? So, no license worries.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


A Comment from Slashdot[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#5)
by sconeu on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 08:11:07 AM PDT

There was a comment on slashdot to the effect of...

"If you use third party software to remove our software, you can't use our software!  Great! Sign me up!"

--
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the United States of America.
[ Reply to This ]



Ads? What ads?[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#15)
by Anonymous User on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 11:53:28 AM PDT

I've used a pop-up blocker for years now. I didn't even know that this site had ads.... :)

[ Reply to This ]


Permission to remove malware[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#16)
by Anonymous User on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 01:00:46 PM PDT

I've been working on a client's system for a while and every so often he gets some malware installed which I remove. Except, when I attempt to remove it (using Add/Remove Software in the control panel) the process opens a web site REQUIRING I ANSWER QUESTIONS ABOUT WHY I WANT IT REMOVED!!! No one should need to explain to any vendor why they want to remove software in order to remove it! And the answers are from a list, which doesn't allow me to tell them I don't want their non-requested software on the systems I administrate. These people should be placed naked in a party room and asked why they want clothes or to leave the party!!

[ Reply to This ]


Re Gain EULA[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#18)
by BlackbirdCS on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 05:10:05 PM PDT

Seems to me if I create a document on MY system, just a word document, with MY License terms of allowing software to be loaded on MY system; unrequested software would be subject to a small fine of $500,000 per day that it is on my system undetected, said penalty to increase to $1,000,000 per day after detection and attempted remaoval by what ever means required. Of course this is difficult to police, but probably has the same legal status as any of their wishfull thinking. If they complain about not being notified then I would ask them how they gained access to MY system.

[ Reply to This ]


Brilliant[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#20)
by Anonymous User on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 12:03:23 AM PDT

I love that suggestion.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


our own elua,s[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#21)
by wawadave on Mon Dec 20, 2004 at 12:11:57 PM PDT

would be excelent if this could work!!!
RFID Tags Spyware!
[ Parent | Reply to This ]


yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#22)
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[ Parent | Reply to This ]


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