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Bank Transfers Kick in When PayPal Limit Reached

By Ed Foster, Section The Gripelog
Posted on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 08:26:47 AM PDT

When I first wrote about PayPal's $2,000 spending limit, I must admit I was a bit puzzled by the policy. Why would eBay's payment subsidiary force long-time users to add bank account "verification" to their accounts? Unfortunately, the reasons are becoming all too clear as more readers report what happens when their total PayPal credit card charges reach $2,000.


"I've just experienced -- and become a victim of -- becoming a PayPal Verified member," one reader wrote recently. "After dozens of PayPal transactions now totaling their $2000 limit, my account was frozen with two transactions pending. I had only one credit card account registered with them, because I did not want to submit bank account information or have one accessible for transactions."

To complete the pending transactions, the reader reluctantly provided PayPal information for one of his bank accounts. "It seemed logical that this would be limited to verifying my identity only," the reader wrote. "But upon completing the two pending transactions, I later found that PayPal attempted to draw money from this account. I had only a small amount of money in the account for my protection against misuse. I had no reason to believe my transaction would not be through my credit card as it always had been. So I now have two non-sufficient funds charges and PayPal is defending their actions and will not even change the failed transaction to my credit card. My bank account must remain as the default payment account if I am to remain a member, even though I do not even want it as a transaction account."

The reader realized too late that he had missed one small sentence in the dozens of documents and thousands upon thousands of words that form PayPal's terms of service. "Once you have become Verified, your bank account (Instant Transfer) becomes PayPal's default payment method," PayPal's Payment terms read. The credit card by which the reader had spent $2,000 was now relegated to an alternate payment method he could use only with difficulty.

As many other readers pointed out after my previous story, it is of course greatly to PayPal's advantage to deduct payments from the user's bank account instead of processing the payment as a credit card charge. Processing credit card transactions costs PayPal more than bank transfers, and credit card chargebacks are eliminated. But while it certainly makes sense for PayPal's bottom line, it also means its customers have less protection if goods aren't shipped or in other payment disputes.

And it certainly still puzzles the reader why eBay/PayPal would want to treat established customers worse than new ones. "There is no reason that verification should be associated with transactions like this," he writes. "I feel like they are misusing private and sensitive member information to their advantage and at members' expense. It's interesting - I really felt good about building up my good rating on PayPal with quick transactions and positive feedback. Suddenly, the wagons have circled, and I'm on the outside being treated like the enemy. Too bad."

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Bank Transfers Kick in When PayPal Limit Reached | 98 comments (98 topical) | Post A Comment
Look before you leap (or click)[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#1)
by Anonymous User on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 09:27:36 AM PDT

If you've ever used PayPal to make a payment, you will notice that right in the middle of the confirmation page there's a box that indicates the source of funds. It does default to your checking account (Instant Transfer from chkg) if you have one established, and you do have to click on a link to choose an alternate payment source, and then click again "to be sure" that you don't really want to use your chkg acct.

But in fairness to PayPal, you should always review the payment info before you click to confirm and pay. Besides paying from the wrong account, you could have accidently specified the wrong amount or the wrong shipping address.

The payment method is clearly indicated on the payment form, not buried in fine print.

[ Reply to This ]



Clarification[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#2)
by Anonymous User on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 10:13:55 AM PDT

I would like Ed to clarify. If the payments were already pending, had the user already selected credit card as form of payment? If so, the language "Once you have become Verified, your bank account (Instant Transfer) becomes PayPal's default" would not seem to apply. While the bank account would become the default selection as indicated by the previous post, it would only apply to new transactions. Transactions that had already been approved for payment would not be included nor does the language indicate in anyway that previous approvals are changed. Assuming this is how it happenned. I would report to the bank that the charges were not authorized and report PayPal for fraud. Also request from Paypal your authorization for them to modify your payment instructions. See if they can produce it.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Re: Clarification[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#3)
by Ed Foster on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 12:11:55 PM PDT

The reader had no alternative to paying by credit card when he had made those two purchases, because that was all he had ever used with PayPal. But it was those two purchases that put him over the $2,000 limit, so, at that point, his account was frozen until he added a bank account for "verification." In order to complete those transactions, he reluctantly did so. Once his account was verified though, PayPal tried to deduct the money from his bank account, not his credit card. Not realizing they were going to do that, he had not put enough money in that bank account to cover the two purchases, resulting in the NSF charges. -- Ed Foster

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Paypal Limit[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#4)
by Anonymous User on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 10:42:43 AM PDT

I've used Paypal many times for small purchases but have not yet reached a total of $2000. I am verified and have to go through the process of checking the radial box for my credit card as you have described. However, do I understand correctly that once I have spent $2000 total on my credit card, I can never use Paypal again using the credit card? If so, can I select another credit card or do I have to use my checking account forever? If this is so, Paypal surely wants to go out of business as their customers reach this limit!!

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Re: PayPal Limit[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#6)
by Ed Foster on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 10:51:49 AM PDT

If you have already been verified, I don't believe that the $2,000 limit will have any effect on your account. The $2,000 limit only applies to those who have only a credit card registered to their PayPal account.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


$2000 limit no longer applies when bank acct added[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#7)
by Anonymous User on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 10:54:17 AM PDT

No you can charge as much as you want you just have to go through the inane selection process every time

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Look before you leap (or click)[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#30)
by Anonymous User on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 10:09:13 AM PDT

I had the same experience as was described. I saw that the payment method had changed to my bank account, which was set up specifically for ebay, but was unfunded for payment. So I went through the procedure to select my credit card instead. I received the very annoying "are you sure?" panel, which also attempts to persuade one to use the bank account for several totally bogus "advantages". I insisted on the credit card option, and the confirmation panel so indicated. But, no. Ebay overdrew my bank account, anyway, and the bank, as overdraft protection, debited my credit card. This resulted in an overdraft notification, and an interest bearing cash advance, in addition to the loss of charge back protection, which was my prime concern in the first place. Lucky for me, my seller was honest. Too bad I can't say the same for ebay/paypal. Needless to say, I am no longer a customer.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


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[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Are we being a bit paranoid here?[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#5)
by Anonymous User on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 10:50:08 AM PDT

While I can't condone some of PayPal's reported practices toward others, I have to say that this article has a bit of an alarmist ring to it. "The credit card by which the reader had spent $2,000 was now relegated to an alternate payment method he could use only with difficulty." What difficulty? When you pay something with PayPal, the payment screen contains all of your funding sources in a drop down box. Yes, the default selection is your bank account, but it takes a single click to make it a credit card. I've been paying PayPal payments by credit card for years despite being Verified, and it isn't difficult at all. "Processing credit card transactions costs PayPal more than bank transfers," True there is more overhead for processing CC transactions, but PayPal does pass on CC surcharges to the recipient of the money. It's not like they "eat" the CC charges and thus are hell-bent on forcing you to use your bank account. And as to all of the hubub about being Verified, I don't understand it. You're entering into a financial agreement with PayPal, just as you would a bank or a brokerage firm. What such traditional arrangement does not require sensitive banking/financial information? I've been Verified since almost day one of my PayPal account history, about 3 years now, and have never had a problem.

[ Reply to This ]


PayPal is awful[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#8)
by Anonymous User on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 10:57:08 AM PDT

I have been trying for several years to get PayPal to remove all traces of me from their system. I do not allow anyone to make direct transfers from my bank account. Nor should you. Anyone with your account number can claim to make a direct transfer from your account. Your only protection is noticing this and complaining. I know because some crook started charging their AOL account to my bank account! He had taken the number off a check I sent to his company.

Besides, when I use my credit card, I get a 1% rebate. Why should I pass that up by not having the payment flow through my VISA or MasterCard?

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



No we're not![ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#20)
by Anonymous User on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 12:32:30 PM PDT

What other company, when you have given them credit card authorization asks for checking account information for "verification", or any other purpose. That smacks of some of the phishing scams going around!!! OOPS! Somebody is going to get the idea to phish the PayPal customers for their checking account numbers..... Sorry, but we have just lowered our $2000 dollar limit to $10000, so you need to go to this website.........

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


1st things 1st: impossible EULA is a warning sign[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#9)
by Anonymous User on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 11:11:21 AM PDT

I stopped using PayPal a few years ago when they were purchased by E-Bay because of the impossible EULA. I tried, but gave up after almost an hour of drill-down junk. I have negotiated large leases with major computer companies and I understood every word of their multipage lawyerly terms. I could never figure out PayPal's circular references even while taking notes, so I said I'll be d---ed if I'll give these people my bank account info. Maybe it's changed by now, but at this point I no longer care. I changed my personal policy: I only deal with VERY established E-Bay sellers and I write them a check. Period. Works just fine for me, just a bit of delayed gratification. Of course, it does limit my choice of sellers quite a bit, but I won't give up my rights for that privilege. JUST SAY NO TO UNREADABLE EULAs!!!

[ Reply to This ]


Paypal verified accounts[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#10)
by Anonymous User on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 11:14:34 AM PDT

It is not "difficult" to use a credit card once you have registered a bank account w/ paypal. I have had a paypal account since near their beginning and always charge my purchases to my credit card. All it takes is to click on the "other sources" button and choose credit card and then answer yes to a question. No big deal. Just always keep your paypal balance at 0 and your bank account low and you will never have a problem. Considering the convenience of paypal, the small problems w/ the company are really no big deal.

[ Reply to This ]


Paypal verified accounts[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#37)
by Anonymous User on Fri Nov 19, 2004 at 06:00:24 PM PDT

I beg to differ. It can be difficult and under some condition impossible to use a credit card at PayPal and I do have a bank account registered. One impossible case is where enough funds exist in the PayPal account to cover the transaction. In that case you don't even get a chance to choose a credit card. Another case is one I ran into earlier this week. I wanted to pay for a transaction and I didn't have enough funds in my PayPal account to cover the entire amount so I chose credit card as the payment method, jumped through the "Are you sure" hoops and when I got back to the transaction screen, the amount over my PayPal account balance was indeed on the credit card, but it still showed the rest as being paid from my PayPal account. No choice offered would allow me to fund fully with the credit card. My solution? I initiated a transfer of the account balance to my bank account and then I was able to fully fund the transaction with a credit card. As soon as the transaction was done, I added the same amount back to my PayPal account so I was able to accomplish what I wanted, but I had to jump through many extra hoops to do it. This is absurd.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Never believe what you see...[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#11)
by peelsequal on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 11:20:18 AM PDT

My story is a slight twist on this subject. I had already reached my $2000.00 max and had added a bank account with little or no funds so I could continue to purchase via my credit card. One day I screwed up and didn't get the right payment method selected before committing the transaction. Fortunately for me, my bank had recently upgraded their system, and but for a missing middle initial, the bank refused to pay due to mismatched account names. PayPal did charge my credit card, so no seller harm was done. My account frozen, I explained to PayPal and re-submitted my validation amounts (two minute deposit amounts and date) to get my checking account re-validated. Next thing I know, I can log in again, but the credit card was the only payment source. Thinking this will work for now, I selected it and committed a new transaction. Next thing I know my bank is charging me for ACH payment requests made with insufficient funds in my account. The moral: even if a PayPal WEB form appears to let you use your credit card, beware of the default payment method!

[ Reply to This ]


Enough whining[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#12)
by Anonymous User on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 11:21:08 AM PDT

So the original writer didn't read the exceptionally clear terms of agreement, and followed that up by not paying attention to the page he was on when he clicked to verify that he wanted money sent?

And PayPal is to blame?

What would you have them do additionally? Send someone to your house to look over your shoulder whenever you are on their payment page and point out the consequences of what you are about to do?

This is a classic example of manufactured victim-hood raised to an art form.

Read the terms of agreement, pay attention before you click "send", and if you don't like what you see, don't use the service. How much simpler can it get than that?


[ Reply to This ]



Whine aversive[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#13)
by peelsequal on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 11:36:25 AM PDT

I don't. And I also see in the categories that I buy/sell in (read: a very select few), "PayPal Only" listings don't generally get as high final value amounts as more liberal payment optioned listings for very similar items. Perhaps if this is prevalent in other categories as well, the sellers my be the one's whining. And they should whine to PayPal to get their act re-scripted.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


I don't think you guys get it.[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#14)
by Anonymous User on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 11:42:01 AM PDT

From what I read -and I am not an English professor or lawyer, so maybe I misunderstood - the user had pending transactions. Those pending transactions were placed using his credit card info. PayPal would not allow those transactions to complete - not because of any fault with the user or his credit - but because of an arbitrary limit they impose. The user was left with two choices, which he tried to wiggle around unsuccessfully; 1 - Give in to PayPal's extortion, provide them with all the info they want, and unfettered access to his/her bank account. 2 - Default on the pending transcations, lose whatever merchandise was involved, and get "bad user" points marked against their account. I agree with others who state the PayPal "contract" is circuitous and difficult to understand. It is very reasonable to assume User X did not understand that his/her bank account would be charged, nor that nsf charges might happen. So, User X did what he beleived was expected of him, and got scr*wed anyway. I have always been suspicious of PayPal. This puts the nail in the coffin for me. I will stick with more trustworthy payment methods - like those friendly folks who send me "Account Confirmation" emails for my CitiBank cards - over and over again.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


PayPal[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#16)
by oracleguy on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 11:58:24 AM PDT

It seems to me that unless the customer specifically selected his bank as his preferred payment source, it should remain his credit card. Regardless of what PayPal might like to do, defaulting to another source seems fraudulent to me. When PayPal changed their license terms, I began ingnoring their renewal requests for information. It has taken a long time for them to realize that I don't want to give them more than they already have.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Amen, brother.[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#18)
by Anonymous User on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 12:17:37 PM PDT

If you can't read (or you're too lazy to do so), don't use PayPal.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Maybe you can't read the prior messages![ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#19)
by Anonymous User on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 12:27:36 PM PDT

Even if you can read (and you're not too lazy to do so), don't use PayPal.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Maybe paypal changed it when you weren't looking[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#33)
by Anonymous User on Fri Nov 19, 2004 at 10:00:40 AM PDT

A) It's not that obvious where you have to click to change to use your credit card. B) Once you select your credit card, you have to answer inane questions about if you're really sure you want to use your credit card (no, I just explicitly selected to use my credit cards because I wanted to write a check? Duuuh, what do you think?) C) If you go to any other screen (like to verify your shipping address is correct, say), Paypal will change it back to your bank account while keeping all of your other entries intact. In other words, no, it is NOT that easy to select and KEEP the credit card choice selected. As an occasional user I have to watch each step like a hawk to successfully run the gauntlet to using a credit card. If I'm at all tired or in a hurry, I get to last screen and WTF??? My bank account has been selected!? Now I have to go back and do the thing over to try once again to convince Paypal I'd really like to use a credit card. If I didn't want to use a credit card, why would I bother puttin up with this ****. So please, don't get up on your pedastal and put people down for "not reading the directions" Paypal takes every opportunity to change that flag back to you bank account instead of a credit card.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Especially if you can read, don't use PayPal![ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#40)
by Anonymous User on Tue Nov 23, 2004 at 04:28:25 PM PDT

yes, especially if you can read, you better be aware and avoid it.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Asked by PayPal for bank info and I'm not a custom[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#44)
by Anonymous User on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 03:13:20 PM PDT

I received an e-mail from PayPal phishing for my bank info. The reason I knew it was phoney was that I am not a customer. How do the real customers determine when a request from PayPal is "phishy"? I would suggest NOBODY provide this information to ANYONE who asks! If PayPal won't do business with you, you are better off without them.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


EULA is not the issue IMHO...[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#15)
by Anonymous User on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 11:53:01 AM PDT

...its the fact that direct transfers from any checking account are not as secure nor backed up by remedies as is a credit card. In my experience, in the checking account case the bank charges YOU for fraud, while the credit card companies are bound by more stringent regulations and have your protection in their best interest. I know - I have been a victim of both. A case of identity theft allowed me this unfortunate insight. Currently, our system allows me to make the decision to rarely have to pay by check; debit cards work well and are slightly more secure. I do use direct transfers -- but only to institutions I trust fully (as in to the same bank with which I have my checking to pay my mortgage) Caveat Emptor (I've always been struck by the similarity to Emptor and Empty as in "buyer" to "Epmty"-headed)

[ Reply to This ]


PayPal games... well known[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#17)
by Anonymous User on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 12:06:01 PM PDT

The PayPal games have been documented on various web sites such as www.paypalsucks.com, listing case after case examples where long term PayPal users had mysterious charges pulled from their bank accounts. We do not understand why a company with so many happy users would want to treat their users in this way, but we could not get any confirmation from PayPal that it would not happen to us. We closed or cancelled every bank account, credit card, debit card, etc. and opened new accounts, to prevent unauthorized PayPal transactions. It appears that some of the PayPal employees have compromised user data as well. As stated by others, NEVER give a third party the right to pull directly from a bank account, unless you keep the balance near zero.

[ Reply to This ]


PayPal BS was recorded... check it out[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#24)
by Anonymous User on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 04:37:16 PM PDT

I just had my account frozen. payPal didn't like my free speech. So I called them about it and posted it on the Internet. You should listen to it and hear them squeal about their rights when I told them I was recording it and going to publish it. http://paypal.ctyme.com/paypal/paypalsucks.htm Audio at: http://marc.perkel.com/audio/paypay2.mp3 [admin added, file mirrored on this site: http://paypalsucks.com/files/paypal2.mp3] (Large files, 3Meg, MP3)

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Another workaround[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#21)
by Reziac on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 12:33:39 PM PDT

It sucks to have to do this, but you can get around the $2000 limit by registering another ebay/paypal identity and starting over. I know lots of people have done so rather than give paypal their banking info.

Personally I think it's better to lose your old "identity" (and its associated feedback) than to risk the security of your bank account.
~REZ~
[ Reply to This ]



Missing the point[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#22)
by Anonymous User on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 02:06:41 PM PDT

Many comments have said the user should have read the terms more closely. This is missing the point. The user processed the transactions with credit card set as the approved payment method. The paypal terms state "Once you have become Verified, your bank account (Instant Transfer) becomes PayPal's default payment method". As many people have pointed out, any new transaction would bring up the screen with the bank as the default payment. If the user missed this on future transactions, shame on him for not reading the screen. In this case, he and Paypal had already set the terms of the transaction (credit card). Paypal just required him to complete the verification process for them to execute the transactions. I have searched the various agreements from paypal and cannot find any that show they will change a selecetd payment method or reserve any right to change the payment method on a pending transaction. Has anyone found such language? If not, the issue is not that they changed his future defualt payment method. The issue is that they were never authorized to draw from his account for these transactions. I look forward to all the paypal defenders quoting the published paypal policies that allow them to engage in the behavior indicated in this gripe.

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A Few Questions About PayPal[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#23)
by Anonymous User on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 03:08:41 PM PDT

Simply put, my bank issued me the VISA card I have been using for years. That is sufficient banking "verification" for all the businesses that I deal with online--except for PayPal. Consider that when you give over your banking information to PayPal, they will then have the technical means to raid your account for every nickel. So what if a hacker or a PayPal employee rips off PayPal's database containing everyone's banking information? Does anyone know if PayPal is bonded or insured against such an event? PayPal is not part of the U.S. banking system or it might be eligible for some kind of federal protection of customer accounts along the lines of the FDIC. Does anyone know anything about PayPal's reputation within the U.S. financial community? What is their S&P rating anyway? Does PayPal have a commercial credit rating of its own? And what kind of history does it have with the U.S. Better Business Bureau and the credit rating bureaus? What I do when buying on eBay is contact the seller and negotiate some other kind of direct payment, VISA, certified check, etc. (I've always found the sellers willing to do this). In the process I let the seller know that because of PayPal's obnoxious verification requirements, I never do business with PayPal. If enough eBay sellers hear that from enough eBay buyers, PayPal may be forced to change its act. PayPal desperately needs one or more competitors willing to offer eBay buyers the option to use credit card transactions indefinitely. But that leads to the question of whether the marriage between eBay and PayPal may have antitrust implications. Is anybody out there from the Justice Department reading this?

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PayPal is a bank[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#35)
by kamnet on Fri Nov 19, 2004 at 01:35:30 PM PDT

PayPal is registered as a banking institution in most states now, if not all of them. They were forced into doing this a few years ago when New York's Attorney General started investigating PayPal and previous parent company X.com. And IIRC Ed's covered this in the past (could be wrong).

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I don't think so[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#42)
by Anonymous User on Thu Nov 25, 2004 at 06:33:47 AM PDT

Paypal is not registered as a bank, they are registered as a money transmitter. Very very different set of requirements. In point of fact, their whole business grew from exploiting and/or violating the card assocation rules in ways that no true financial institution could.

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Marc Perkel recorded his PayPal call...[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#25)
by Anonymous User on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 05:10:11 PM PDT

I just had my account frozen. payPal didn't like my free speech. So I called them about it and posted it on the Internet. You should listen to it and hear them squeal about their rights when I told them I was recording it and going to publish it. http://paypal.ctyme.com/paypal/paypalsucks.htm Audio at: http://marc.perkel.com/audio/paypay2.mp3 [admin added, file mirrored on this site: http://paypalsucks.com/files/paypal2.mp3] (Large files, 3Meg, MP3)

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On-topic comment spam[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#27)
by foxyshadis1 on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 06:52:44 PM PDT

Thanks for telling us twice, I'm sure everyone was really itching to hear it again. Didn't I see this same comment on another site six months ago? Do you just spam it anywhere that mentions paypal?

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Perkel's MP3 file[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#29)
by Anonymous User on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 09:37:13 AM PDT

Actually, Mark's 25-minu