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PayPal Terms

By Ed Foster, Section Gripes
Posted on Wed May 07, 2003 at 10:06:13 AM PDT
A number of readers have expressed annoyance with PayPal’s campaign to have customers approve its new user agreement. As one reader wrote:

I'm sure it's caught your attention, but the heavy handed and threatening way in which eBay/PayPal is getting users to reaffirm agreement to PayPal's user agreement is shameful - insisting members agree within 120 days or have their accounts closed and reminding them daily via email of this. It will interesting to see just how many members and how much business they loose over this and whether they back off at the last minute.

We have to wonder why PayPal is making such a big deal of this new agreement. I’ve looked the agreement over quickly to see if there are any obvious red flags, and there are certainly some things that can cause one to hesitate. But I would suspect the old agreement had similar terms, so I’m not sure what PayPal’s purpose is in pushing this new agreement so forcefully. Anyone out there have a theory?

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PayPal Terms | 30 comments (30 topical)
PayPal terms (none / 0) (#1)
by Anonymous User on Wed May 07, 2003 at 01:07:20 PM PDT

I had been a PayPal customer from virtually their beginning.  Over time the user agreement evolved (or perhaps degenerated) to its present state which (in my non-expert opinion) says virtually:

No matter what happens to your account or your money it's NOT our fault.  We don't have to talk to you about it and we really don't care.  In fact, if you trouble us about it, we might just bill you for our trouble.  We value you as a customer, though.  So please keep that in mind.

Yea, right!  For me the latest user agreement is just too far out and 110% biased in their favor.  I've already cancelled my PayPal account and encourage others to do so as well.



Cancel your Paypal account?[ Parent ] (none / 0) (#17)
by Anonymous User on Tue May 13, 2003 at 01:19:48 PM PDT

I wish everyone would cancel their account -- especially now that EBAY owns Paypal. Ebay has too much of a monopoly as it is. What's next, are they going to buy UPS? However, as long as EVERYONE wants to pay for auctions with Paypal, what can you do? I do also accept www.bidpay.com and c2it.com -- but nobody ever wants to pay with them.

[ Parent ]


more people will be canceling Paypal now[ Parent ] (none / 0) (#22)
by Anonymous User on Wed May 14, 2003 at 12:09:49 PM PDT

Between the new user agreement and the elimination of being able to pay for "mature" items, I think a lot more people are going to be leaving Paypal now.

[ Parent ]


yes[ Parent ] (none / 0) (#30)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:33:21 PM PDT

出会い系出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニー。エロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援。不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEｱｹﾞｲﾝで決まり

[ Parent ]


I think they're insistent... (none / 0) (#2)
by wrightc on Thu May 08, 2003 at 07:38:46 AM PDT

because they're being sued over the way they handle disputes. I *suspect* the changes in the agreement's legaleese make it easier for them to resolve disputes the way they want to (which I believe is "come to California and argue your case in front of an arbitrator of our choosing").
-----
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?" - Edward Young


handle disputes?[ Parent ] (none / 0) (#18)
by Anonymous User on Tue May 13, 2003 at 01:22:39 PM PDT

The way Paypal handles disputes, is put them off for awhile -- then DENY any satisfaction. That's the same way EBAY handles disputes. You CAN pay via a CREDIT CARD, but when you get satisfaction from your credit card company, be prepared to get THREATENED by Paypal!

[ Parent ]


PayPal Terms *Just Say No* (none / 0) (#3)
by Anonymous User on Thu May 08, 2003 at 10:33:13 AM PDT

I tried to read the entire new agreement, but the web site timed me out after 20 minutes so I was unable to finish it. (I read and evaluate leases and similar business contracts regularly, so I'm used to it.) There are so many drill-throughs that it's almost impossible to even know if you got them all. I didn't find anything too nasty, or anyway that was uniquely bad. But if it takes them over 100 pages to list the agreement it can't be to protect their customers! I too will cancel. I told them that. They sent me back a canned PR response saying nothing in particular.



What does it matter what it says?[ Parent ] (none / 0) (#15)
by Anonymous User on Tue May 13, 2003 at 11:09:02 AM PDT

I'm sure (like the last one) -- the new UA says that they may change it at any time. So what it says today, it may not say tomorrow anyway!

[ Parent ]


Security in Paypay (none / 0) (#4)
by jkunin on Thu May 08, 2003 at 10:39:56 AM PDT

About 1 year ago I reported a fraudulent charge on my credit card statement from Paypal. I have never had a Paypal account. My credit card reversed the charge, but I discovered recently that Paypal did nothing. How did I discover? I tried to create, for the first time, a Paypal account for myself. The Paypal system informed me that I already had an account, but that my email was not recognized. Someone had my name, address, and credit card information, and had used their own email to create the account, a clear case of identity theft, and a hugh hole in Paypal's user verification procedures. Paypal is currently "investigating" but to date the problem is not resolved.


Paypal NEVER pays out on fraud claims.[ Parent ] (none / 0) (#14)
by Anonymous User on Tue May 13, 2003 at 11:07:44 AM PDT

The ONLY safe way to pay via Paypal is with a credit card. Paypal does not investigate fraud claims and does everything they can to deny any effort that you make yourself. It is the same with Ebay's "insurance."

[ Parent ]


Paypal is the unauthorized acceptor of a lot of $[ Parent ] (none / 0) (#21)
by Anonymous User on Tue May 13, 2003 at 09:29:20 PM PDT

Another big security hole (and nuisance) is that Paypal accepts money for people who have told them that they don't want Paypal to take money on their behalf. Even if you sign up for a Paypal account, you can't stop them from taking money in your name. There is no reason why Paypal won't let you set your account so you don't get unwanted payments, and unwanted payment types. (Well there is a reason, it's because they want to bully you into an account with them.)

[ Parent ]


More crooked Paypal and Ebay tactics[ Parent ] (none / 0) (#26)
by Anonymous User on Sat May 17, 2003 at 01:07:01 PM PDT

Paypal also accepts credit card money, even if the user specifically does not want it (because their account can't handle it, and Paypal just holds the money hostage). This is much like Ebay, where users can earmark their auctions for USA only bids, yet Ebay refuses to prevent out-of-country bidding. This causes more failed transactions (which means the seller must relist, and Ebay can charge them again).

[ Parent ]


Paypal (none / 0) (#5)
by Anonymous User on Thu May 08, 2003 at 10:51:06 AM PDT

The unfortunate fact of the matter is, Paypal is BY FAR the least expensive way to have the ability to take credit cards for 'casual' business use, and their fees are remarkably reasonable, with no monthly, or accounting, or software fees, or any of the other nonsense that a regular merchant account would charge.

And if you think their terms are draconian, you've never had a merchant account with a bank, where they can simply and arbitrarily freeze the money not only in your merchant account, but your bank account as well.

The bad news is the purchase by ebay. Ebay is IMPOSSIBLE to deal with if you have a problem. It takes a VERY long time to find an email address to write to, and I defy anyone to find a phone number anywhere on the vast ebay site to call with customer service or fraud problems. I'm guessing this will be the direction paypal moves as well.

I've been with paypal for about three years, and never, ever a problem, but I know that if I do have one at some point, I'm not going to be able to resolve it easily.



Bidpay and c2it are both FREE to the recipient![ Parent ] (none / 0) (#19)
by Anonymous User on Tue May 13, 2003 at 06:25:04 PM PDT

Your comment, "The unfortunate fact of the matter is, Paypal is BY FAR the least expensive way to have the ability to take credit cards for 'casual' business use, and their fees are remarkably reasonable, with no monthly, or accounting, or software fees, or any of the other nonsense that a regular merchant account would charge." -- JUST ISN'T TRUE! Bidpay and c2it are both FREE to the recipient and c2it charges only 2% of each transaction (cheaper then Paypal)!

[ Parent ]


99 bottles of spam on the wall (none / 0) (#6)
by dsanderson on Thu May 08, 2003 at 11:18:59 AM PDT

I had a personal account with PayPal since their very early days, and a business account since the day after they started offering those. To date I've never had a problem, but when this latest change of terms came out, it was the first time I can remember that it wasn't accompanied by an explanation of exactly what had changed. That made me nervous, so I have been trying to go through it in detail before I agree. Now they are playing 99 bottles of spam on the wall, by sending me a new email EVERY DAY telling me how many days I have left to agree. This is really annoying me, which I'm sure is exactly their intention. I'll read the entire agreement, and unless I find something really outrageous in it, I'll agree, but not till the 119th day. Dave


Set up a filter... and say goodbye to their SPAM![ Parent ] (none / 0) (#16)
by Anonymous User on Tue May 13, 2003 at 01:14:43 PM PDT

Set up a filter that looks for "Important Information About Your PayPal Account" and send it to your Junk Email Folder. That's what I did. Haven't seen one of their emails in days!

[ Parent ]


Is this to distract us? (none / 0) (#7)
by Anonymous User on Thu May 08, 2003 at 12:31:12 PM PDT

Now that EBAY owns Paypal, why haven't they reduced the price for the cost to make Ebay auction payments with Paypal? This seems like "double-dipping" to me, where Ebay charges sellers to LIST an item (often MANY times, since Ebay refuses to verify users there are many deadbeat bidders), final value fees on items, and now they're also getting a cut on the payment too. How many ways can Ebay charge sellers for ONE sale?


PayPal's griding insistence (none / 0) (#8)
by Anonymous User on Thu May 08, 2003 at 04:12:31 PM PDT

Having downloaded and read the entire new set of policies from PayPal, I can say more has changed in the Acceptable Use Policy than in the User Agreement. And signing off on the Acceptable Use Policy may be what they're after, an acknowledgment that "we were warned."

About what? A whole lot of things are unacceptable now, and nothing new is acceptable. All one-sided - no No NO. And some things allowed on eBay are now forbid in PayPal. One example:

After June 12, 2003, PayPal will no longer process transactions for adult items through the Mature Audiences category on eBay. As a result, after June 12, PayPal will no longer process payments for adult items anywhere on the Internet.

These are anal times.



Paypal and "adult" items.[ Parent ] (none / 0) (#9)
by Anonymous User on Thu May 08, 2003 at 10:18:19 PM PDT

Banning adult items was completely expected. The Paypal/Ebay functionality has never worked for "Adult" items. That is, you were never able to connect Paypal payments to a specific auction. That was a BIG tip-off that they were looking to do away with Paypal and adult items. Ebay is SUPPOSED to be 18+ ADULT ONLY anyway, I don't understand why that stuff needs to be hidden away, and if you want to access it, you have to sign in OVER AND OVER again. Ebay needs to start taking better care of its users.

[ Parent ]


eBay Adult Content (PayPal)[ Parent ] (none / 0) (#11)
by Anonymous User on Mon May 12, 2003 at 11:50:04 AM PDT

I don't have a gripe with eBay (or PayPal for that matter) over their terms and conditions of "adult" use. I appreciate the filtering that it provides me and my family. My 15 year old daughter and 14 year old son do shop on eBay, sometimes without direct supervision. There are some items that can slip through, but for the most part most of the obnoxious items will not. I am very thankful for that.

[ Parent ]


Your underage children shopping on Ebay[ Parent ] (none / 0) (#12)
by Anonymous User on Mon May 12, 2003 at 01:25:59 PM PDT

YOU are in violation of the Ebay user agreement -- which says that ONLY people 18 or older will use the service. It is people like YOU who violate the rules and then expect everyone ELSE to watch your children who force legitimate users to have problems. Yeah, I'm sure you don't have a problem with a lot of the censorship taking place in the market today. Why not take responsibility for raising your children instead of expecting ADULT ONLY venues to be censored for your minor children?

[ Parent ]


Changes in PayPal's agreement (none / 0) (#10)
by kamnet on Sun May 11, 2003 at 03:09:58 PM PDT

The main changes I saw were a) they can run a credit check on you at anytime and dump you if they think you're a credit risk b) you agree to binding arbitration for anything under $10k c) if you are in debt to paypal they can place a lein on any accounts they find and d) you can't use paypal to pay or receive payment for gambling activity or "adult" items.

I went ahead and agreed to it since my credit rating is already in the dumps, I never use paypal for more than a few hundred dollars, I own nothing that they can place a lein on, and I don't gamble or partake in any other frowned-upon activities. The sad thing is that if PayPal starts enforcing the credit checks, they are going to lose a lot of business. Then again, they've never made a profit, so perhaps it would be a good thing for them.

However if I had to take it or leave it, I could definitely leave it. Checks, money order and good 'ol hard cash are still worth what they're printed on.



Closing the CREDIT CARD protection loophole? (none / 0) (#13)
by Anonymous User on Mon May 12, 2003 at 10:35:01 PM PDT

I always drain my Paypal account whenever I want to pay for an auction -- and THEN pay with a CREDIT CARD. Even then, it is hard to pay with a CREDIT CARD, because Paypal keeps trying to default back to a bank account. Paying with a credit card allows you real fraud protection (Paypal and Ebay's "fraud protection" is a JOKE). I have NOT agreed to the new Paypal agreement and won't read it until I must (they may change it a dozen times in the next 40 days anyway). But, I wonder if the new agreement tries to make it more difficult to take advantage of your credit card's protection policy. I know the couple of times when I DID contact my credit card company because of fraud issues, Paypal got very nasty with me.


Ebay cancelling PAYPAL auctions! (none / 0) (#20)
by Anonymous User on Tue May 13, 2003 at 07:54:00 PM PDT

I just tried to list something in the "mature" category on Ebay -- and I had PAYPAL in my text. Ebay warned me that they would CANCEL my auction if I offered Paypal as an option! HELLO C2IT and BIDPAY!



"heavy handed and threatening" (none / 0) (#23)
by Anonymous User on Wed May 14, 2003 at 05:43:13 PM PDT

I don't wonder at all why paypal is "heavy handed and threatening." They are owned by ebay now, and ebay has always been heavy handed and threatening.


EBAY/PayPal Terms.... (none / 0) (#24)
by Anonymous User on Thu May 15, 2003 at 01:30:23 PM PDT

I to looked at that terms and have closed my Pay Pal account. This is basically a lights out operation where if you have a problem will be run run run through the system until you tire of it and give up. I going back using money orders.



Paypal is insistent that you don't use your CC[ Parent ] (none / 0) (#25)
by Anonymous User on Thu May 15, 2003 at 08:39:03 PM PDT

Paypal has designed the system to discourage paying with a credit card as much as possible. If you pay via a paypal balance or your bank account, you're SOL. If you pay via a credit card, you can do a chargeback.

[ Parent ]


30 Days Left! (none / 0) (#27)
by Anonymous User on Sun May 18, 2003 at 10:54:43 AM PDT

Got my usual email from Paypal today (like I get everyday now), and they tell me I only have 30 days left!


This thread has been locked[ Parent ] (none / 0) (#28)
by webmaster on Wed May 21, 2003 at 02:29:15 AM PDT

This thread has been locked due to spamming. We understand you are upset about the way paypal/ebay have treated you, but spamming our board and complaning in diferent threads is not the way to get your point across, it only gets your posts deleted. In the future, please try to stick to the topic at hand, and keep the repeats out. We may soon have a forum where you can go rant about anything you want, but right now, these threads are for comments related directly on the story, not your own personal agenda. We are trying to keep them to the point. Thank you.

[ Parent ]


yes[ Parent ] (none / 0) (#29)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:33:17 PM PDT

出会い系出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニー。エロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援。不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEｱｹﾞｲﾝで決まり

[ Parent ]


PayPal Terms | 30 comments (30 topical)
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