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Oklahoma!!! | 49 comments (49 topical) | Post A Comment
Isn't the ALA Representative Two Faced?[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#6)
by Anonymous User on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 01:12:09 PM PDT

The article says, "'We were deeply disappointed to learn these controversial provisions were enacted in Oklahoma without those who oppose them having a chance to air their views,' says Miriam Nesbit, president of AFFECT and legislative counsel for the American Library Association."

The ALA, however, on its own, without giving those who oppose it a chance to air their views, made two significant changes in the way libraries are run. 1) Librarians will no longer protect children from harm (although all other government employees continue to have such a duty), and 2) it is age discrimination for a librarian to keep a child from any material, whether or not it is sexually inappropriate for children (although no one else is allowed to provide children with such access). The ALA, likely with influence from the ACLU, made this change decades ago. Those who might have opposed them either were not aware this happened or could do nothing about it. Indeed to this very day the ALA keeps people in the dark and children continue to be harmed on a regular basis in public libraries, even despite law such as CIPA and case law such as US v. ALA designed to stop this very thing.

Isn't it two-faced for an ALA representative to decry a lack of an opportunity to respond when that is exactly what the ALA has done to the entire country and children are suffering ever since?

All this is my opinion, of course, except the existing law, cases, and facts.

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Cite?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#8)
by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 02:12:13 AM PDT

Have you got a cite for this "every day children are harmed in public libraries" claim? I'm not aware that there's a growing problem with library violence (unlike, say, school violence, though there IS a staff requirement to protect the children in a school) or frequent library stick-ups (unlike, say, gas bars and convenience stores, which seem to get shot up every Tuesday and alternate Thursdays in the US)...

Or perhaps you have a peculiar definition of "harm" that includes things like "the imparting of information" as well as violence, physical abuse, etc.? If that's the case, kudos to the ALA for now kowtowing to religious reactionaries and others that know they can only perpetuate themselves if they can "protect" at least some children from becoming worldly critical thinkers. I would consider that "protecting" people from knowledge of how the world really is DOES constitute harm, because these people brought up in a fairy-tale world end up at great risk of being taken advantage of, by the right-wing religious nuts that arrange the circumstances or by unscrupulous corporations, wingnuts on the left, pedophiles, what-have-you...

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speling[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#9)
by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 02:14:39 AM PDT

bah. "not kowtowing", not "now kowtowing".

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"speling" - Response[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#12)
by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 07:02:34 AM PDT

Funny speling error. Hard to read - tongue twister. Seeing as this blog is about another issue, and my question was in regard to the subject of this blog, I'm not going to expand further to a topic beyond the scope of this blog and my comment. Do you have any questions along those lines? Just do a Google search for anything beyond the scope of this blog.

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What harm?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#10)
by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 05:52:14 AM PDT

By harm, are you referring to exposure to materials that _you_ would deem inappropriate for children?

I've been to my public library, and hard as I looked I couldn't find the porn section. I suppose it's possible my son might stumble on a National Geographic and see pictures of semi-naked people, but as long as he reads the articles and, gasp, learns something, I think I'd be OK with it. (IMO)

I believe in taking responsibility for my own child and not expecting other people, especially government employees, from doing my job. When I take him to the library I monitor what he's looking at, not because I'm concerned about the content, but because he might need an age-appropriate explanation of what he's seeing.

Frankly, if he wants to get more information about breast cancer (my wife was diagnosed about a year ago), I don't want someone else deciding that he shouldn't see that material because breasts are involved.

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"What harm?" Response[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#11)
by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 06:59:13 AM PDT

You're behind the times. But you are in line with ALA misinformation. Seeing as this blog is about another issue, and my question was in regard to the subject of this blog, I'm not going to expand further to a topic beyond the scope of this blog and my comment. Do you have any questions along those lines?

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Re: "What harm?" Response[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#14)
by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 09:19:23 AM PDT

1) _You_ brought up the issue with ALA, not me. You stated, as if it were a fact, that the ALA had caused harm to children. A very serious charge and certainly it would be reasonable to ask what harm you were referring to. If you're not able to discuss it, you shouldn't have brought it up.

2) I'm not sure what you mean by "behind the times". Maybe it has something to do with my belief that taking care of my child is _my_ responsibility, and not someone elses?

3) Whether there is any ALA misinformation or not (which we will never know, since you're not willing to discuss it), I am entitled to my beliefs, which I managed to come to without knowing anything about the ALA or you.

4) What difference does it make if the ALA is being two-faced or not? To me, the primary issue is with the possible loss of consumer rights in OK and it's effects on the rest of the country. If the ALA is willing to try to help to fight the loss of consumer rights, I'm willing to accept their help.

Whether or not there are problems with the ALA, it's not relevant to the topic of the OP. It is also very clear that you have your own agenda which also doesn't seem to have anything to do with the topic of the OP.

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response[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#16)
by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 11:26:53 AM PDT

No. Out of respect for the owner of this blog, I'll stick to the topic. Had I my own agenda, I would respond to you here on the ALA issues. But alas, that's not the point here. Look elsewhere if you want to defend the ALA against those exposing how it skirts a US Supreme Court case it lost, US v. ALA, CIPA, community opinions, and on and on.

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ALA[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#17)
by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 12:05:36 PM PDT

No, I am not defending the ALA. (If I was, it would be pretty easy to do, as you rely on quoting or paraphrasing out of context.) I was just asking for a simple explanation of the "harm" that you stated as fact, since I was honestly unaware of the great evil that you claim they are responsible for.

I did a little quick research on the subject, and I can actually understand where some people might have valid concerns, even if I don't share or agree with those concerns.


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Finally[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#21)
by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 08:15:42 PM PDT

Finally some reason from you. You say you can actually understand why parents have valid concerns. Now I least I know you are not an ALA-controlled automaton.

Did you know the ALA has already been sued for harm to a child caused by unfilter Internet access? The ALA won. But that was before US v. ALA that the ALA lost big. Now there are other cases, post US v. ALA, where children have been molested or raped in a situation where it may be the ALA's fault, at least in part. But no one I know of has yet brought such a case. But as more and more children are harmed, eventually someone will sue the ALA. At that time proper resources will be brought to bear on the ALA, and given its actions and a court's search for truth, the ALA is likely to lose. Again. But I can't read those tea leaves. We'll just have to wait and see.

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Ouch[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#22)
by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 08:17:49 PM PDT

Ouch. I just realized you enticed me to go beyond the scope of this blog, even though I saidI wouldn't. I apologize.

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yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#43)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 11:45:31 PM PDT

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yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#44)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 11:45:45 PM PDT

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[ Parent | Reply to This ]


yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#41)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 11:45:17 PM PDT

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[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Talk about two-faced...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#28)
by ekuns on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:11:00 PM PDT

So you bring up something inflamatory that you admit is off topic. You speak about that topic as if it is fact, but don't give anyone else enough information to know what you are speaking of. And you use this charge of causing direct harm to discredit the ALA, it seems, perhaps so as to support the cause that they are opposing. We don't know. Nothing in your post was on topic. Yet when people ask you to substantiate your charges, you say that you don't want to be off topic.

In other words, all you wanted to do is to smear the ALA but now that you have done so, you don't want to be bothered to have a discussion about your statements. And when you respond to people, you speak about whether or not they are an "ALA-controlled automaton."

This sounds like tinfoil hat material to me. You clearly have an agenda, or you wouldn't have mentioned something so alarming ("children continue to be harmed on a regular basis in public libraries") without being willing to substantiate your charge. Rather than several posts saying you don't want to be off topic, it would have taken only one short post to give a link to some appropriate venue where you had commented intelligently about the issue you speak of, and that would have been respectful. Instead, you have successfully diverted discussion.

Lest you charge me with have some ox to gore, the last time I set foot in a public library was so long ago I don't remember when it was. I don't know any librarians personally. All I know about the ALA is the occasional stance they take publically (as reported by the press). I am not reacting to the fact that you said something about the ALA. I am reacting to the fact that you made an off topic strong allegation about some organization causing harm to be done to children on a regular basis, and subsequently done all you could to dance around that issue to avoid having to substantiate anything. It's irritating and it speaks of you having an ox to gore.



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Oklahoma!!! | 49 comments (49 topical) | Post A Comment
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