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Reader Voices: Contract or Coercion? | 201 comments (201 topical) | Post A Comment
Lawyer's view[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#4)
by Anonymous User on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 01:37:35 PM PDT

I am an attorney, and I have been handling litigation for over 30 years. I keep up with technology because it is interesting and because my clients are technology companies. I always enjoy reading the comments in which non-lawyers opine on what the law is. I thought your readers might be interested in how experienced lawyers view issues like EULAs and copyright and licensing. The first thing to understand is that law is not like engineering. In fact lawyers tend to joke about how all engineering trained people think they don't need lawyers, because they can understand "the law" by reading it. What lawyers know that engineers (and that includes software engineers/programmers) don't know is that the law is not a specification. You can't just look the law up and then you know what is going to happen. Any analogy as to what the law is will eventually break down, but one way to look at "the law" is that it is a continuous argument between competing interests. A judge, as Oliver Wendell Homes said over a century ago, (if he/she is a good judge) will try to rule in such a way that the rule, which is called an "opinion" for good reasons, will not ignore prior precedent and at the same time not produce an unacceptable result. Consequently, when we lawyers are looking at how a case has been subsequently cited we will see phrases like "distinguished," "followed," "disagreed with," "explained," etc. to describe how the subsequent court treated the case. If you want to know what the law is regarding sneak wrap agreements, you may be in for some frustration, because there isn't a black and white answer. If I am evaluating a specific case in which, for example, I am representing someone who wants a EULA agreement to not be enforced, I am going to look at what my client specifically wants. Does my client want their money back on a piece of software that does not work (I will probably win no matter what the EULA says as long as I come up with an argument and my client is telling the truth), or does my client want to sell time shares to use the software (maybe that is a silly example, but it is a sure loser). Does the software do something bad to my client's computer, ala Sony rootkit (winner), or does my client want to install the software on 100 hundred computers although the license is only for one (loser). There will be harder cases than those I have used as examples. In those cases conservative judges, and federal judges are as a rule very conservative these days because they are overwhelmingly Republican, will tend to favor the EULA and more progressive judges (some state judges and a few federal judges) will tend to favor the consumer/customer. (I am not making a partisan statement, that is just the way it is.) These cases that are close calls give rise to the expression lawyers use, "hard cases make bad law." Overall, the particular facts of a case have much more influence on the outcome than a statute or prior case. Some law is so well settled that there is little left to argue about, but in the EULA area there is so little law that we lawyers will likely be able to feed our families for some time to come. Kurt Arbuckle

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Ahhhh...The Real Culprit[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#5)
by Anonymous User on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 02:48:11 PM PDT

As the originator of the "culprits" in the EULA mess and after reading the contribution from a practicing attorney, Q.E.D.

The attorney speaks candidly.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Fortunately...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#6)
by Jarulf on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 11:45:49 PM PDT

...we engineers at least have embraced the linguistically invention called "paragraphs" that split the text up in sections. For a short moment, I thought lawyers would have been doing the same but now I have my doubts....

Sorry, could not resist. On a more serious note though, it is worth pointing out that not the whole world uses the same system for laws, courts, precendents and such as in the US, which unfortunately sometimes people tend to believe.

Considering EULAs is basically just contracts, I find your following statement quite interesting:

"Some law is so well settled that there is little left to argue about, but in the EULA area there is so little law that we lawyers will likely be able to feed our families for some time to come."

I would have thought contract laws and consumer sales laws for that matter quite settled in the US.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



They were[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#8)
by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 08:19:47 AM PDT

The software industry decided to unsettle them, since they saw a way to make a few billion fast bucks doing so.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#39)
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Re; fortunately...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#9)
by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 10:41:29 AM PDT

"...we engineers at least have embraced the linguistically invention called 'paragraphs'" I wrote it in a word processor and copy/pasted it into the comment area. In the comment area it had paragraphs. When it came up in preview it did not. I did not know how to fix it, so I let it go. Just as I will let your phrase "linguistically invention" go. In fact I just wrote a response to the rest of your post (this time I wrote it in the comment area) and it did the same thing. So I won't post it

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Paragraphs[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#11)
by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 01:14:33 PM PDT

I'm not the poster who made the comment about paragraphs, but the easiest way to maintain paragraphs is to select "Plain Text" from the drop down list below the comment box.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


It was not meant,....[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#13)
by Jarulf on Thu Apr 13, 2006 at 12:08:40 AM PDT

That comment of mine was not meant to be taken to serious. I think you ran into the problem of the formating on these forums, Has happened to me too. I have switched it to "Plain Text", that way it keep blank lines and other such things. By the way, English is not my native language.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#35)
by maderikapapa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 12:32:21 AM PDT

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Dear Lawyer[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#7)
by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 07:26:06 AM PDT

An important distinction between engineering and law is that for engineers the laws never change but for lawyers the law is constantly in flux.

Engineers must find ways to take advantage of the laws of the universe to benefit themselves and mankind. Often this results in new ways of using old but unchanging laws.

Lawyers find ways to take advantage of the law of the land to benefit themselves and their clients. Often this process involves changing the very laws they are operating under.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#37)
by maderikapapa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 12:34:35 AM PDT

出会い出会い系サイト出会い喫茶出会い掲示板ナンパ出会いカフェ人妻出会い無 009;系サイト優良出会い系攻略 完全無料。アダルトビデオアダルト動画アダルトアニメアダルト画像アダル 488;サイト無料DVDアダルト風俗サンプル無料風俗優良アダルトサイト比較海 806;。人妻画像人妻パラダイス知合い人妻援護会人妻コレクション風 439;告白。熟女画像東京熟女掲示板動画熟女ビデオおまんこオナニーエロ画像エロフラッシュアニメ 456;ロ動画エロゲームエロ漫画無料エロサイト。エッチ画像エッチ動画エッチ小説写真エッチ 450;ニメエッチ0930。セックスアナルセックス画像セックス動画セックスフレンドスワッピングSEX写真セックスボランティセ 483;クス体位東京セックス仕方 SEX。おっぱい画像おっぱい村長おっぱい楽園掲示板お 387;ぱい命おっぱいゲーム。巨乳動画巨乳画像アイドル巨乳 522;示板風俗。セフレ募集セフレ掲示板セフレ画像掲示板セフレの作り方出会い無料素人セフレ。童貞狩りエロ漫画童貞狩り童貞喪失童貞オークション素人童貞逆援不倫パートナー不倫出会い人妻不倫不倫を楽しみたい方にはお薦め 154;妻画像など満載出会いサイトを楽しむならココ無料出会いで一緒に遊ぼう出会いはLOVEアゲインで決まり

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


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Response to a Lawyer's View[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#10)
by srynas on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 11:23:59 AM PDT

Very good comments. I hope that you will continue to contribute. Personally, I would welcome more input pro or con from the legal community.

My understanding of the law is obviously skewed since I, as well as many other people, are frantically seeking a "foothold" to stop the egregiously unfair business practices of vendors when they unilaterally "dump" on us EULAs that have the preceived effect of eliminating consumer rights.

I hope you will continue to post.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



I agree[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#12)
by Garminski on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 03:25:33 PM PDT

I would also like to see the Lawyer continue to post on this site. Most peoples understanding of the law is fairly basic and we quite often confuse what is right with what is legal. This is easy to do when you are not in a given profession. How many of us have snickered while listining to someone outside the computer industry explain how they thought computers and computer companies worked? A professionals opinion would be very interesting to read when we are dealing with law related topics.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#40)
by maderikapapa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 12:35:07 AM PDT

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