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Licensed Users or Licensed Machines? | 101 comments (101 topical) | Post A Comment
I didn't say I liked it.[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#27)
by wantobe on Wed Jan 25, 2006 at 03:06:34 AM PDT

You can complain about the cumbersome EULAs all you like, and I'll agree with you that they are burdonsome, but my point remains that in THIS case, the bundled OS license is pretty well known. You can't complain that this is some surprise sprung on unsuspecting buyers.

You make a good point about the lack of options for the typical buyer when they buy a computer at Best Buy or Circuit City, but there are other options. The average consumer probably isn't aware of the difference, and would balk at the higher cost of a custom built system with retail versions of software instead of OEM, but you get what you pay for.

And consumers not doing the research to better understand what it is they are getting (or failing to get) is something I can't really sympathize with, considering one of the services my company offers is free consulting on computer purchases.


Rob Miles
--
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Not at all "well known"[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#34)
by Anonymous User on Wed Jan 25, 2006 at 05:34:31 AM PDT

>but my point remains that in THIS case, the
>bundled OS license is pretty well known.

I would say that most people buying a computer doesn't have a clue really and have no knowledge of such things at all. You even admit this later on when you write that "The average consumer probably isn't aware of the difference," which I agree with completely.

>And consumers not doing the research to better
>understand what it is they are getting (or
>failing to get) is something I can't really
>sympathize with,

The main problem is that in many cases, the consumer has no idea what he needs to get infomration about to start with and have a hard time to get it and so on. That is of course why in many countries, consumer sales laws put the burden on the seller to informa of such things that are not evident, can be surprising and different from what one might expect and so on. It is also why many types of sales practises are not allowed by the law, not sure about these specific cases discussed here and don't think there have been cases either.

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Hogwash![ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#41)
by wantobe on Wed Jan 25, 2006 at 07:06:29 AM PDT

Yes, I "admit" that the average consumer isn't aware of the difference, but that doesn't mean I don't think they are responsible for finding out. And really, it's as easy as asking someone you know who works on computers, or calling a local computer shop and just asking for advice. Not all of them will help you, but you'll eventually find someone who will. And the practise is well-known by anyone who has been involved in computer maintenance and repair, or even building, for more than a few months.


Rob Miles
--
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't.
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I don't know...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#45)
by Jarulf on Wed Jan 25, 2006 at 08:23:16 AM PDT

I don't know how it is in the US but considering that in most countries when you buy something, you own it and there is no restrictions on its use, this case would be an EXCEPTION to what one can expect. In such a case it would be the responsability of the seller to inform of such a thing. A consumer is not supposed to haveing the duto on each and every purchase to go arround and make questions from "experts" to find out if there is some special case.

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EULA[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#59)
by Anonymous User on Thu Jan 26, 2006 at 12:35:34 PM PDT

I Agree. For people who are new to buying a computer, it's not reasonable to expect there would be such a long and ridiculous legal agreement attached to the purchase, AND that you can't even read said agreement until after you complete the purchase and set up the computer the first time. At least in the case of a computer system, you can usually return it for a refund if you don't agree with the EULA. (There are exceptions, like re-stock fees for some computers from some stores. Those stores deserve to have the re-stock fee charged back to them by the consumers credit card issuer.)

In the case of a computer system purchase, there should be enough room on the outside of the box to print a fairly large warning that this purchase requires accepting a "legal" agreeement, and to ask the store employee for a copy of said agreement if they wish to review it before purchase.  

Of course, they don't really want consumers being made aware of the agreements, then there could be some real backlash from consumers.

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Post-Sale Agreement = Absurdity[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#74)
by Anonymous User on Mon Jan 30, 2006 at 01:01:56 PM PDT

I am not aware of any legal precedant establishing a license is legally enforcable unless it was somehow disclosed in a reasonable fashion before the actual sale. How can an agreement that it is hidden until after purchase be made AFTER THE FACT? Money was accepted without any agreement. Please alert me to relevant case laws, if applicable. -Chris

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The retail market is the default place of purchase[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#53)
by ekuns on Wed Jan 25, 2006 at 08:39:09 PM PDT

ALL machines in the retail market come with Windows pre-installed. You simply cannot -- in the normal retail market -- find a PC without paying for an OEM Windows license. Thus, your argument that a careful user would pay more for the full non-OEM license is absurd. There is no venue in which to do so, in part because Microsoft licensing largely prevents it.

This means that you are always free to purchase the boxed non-OEM version of Windows ("for machines without Windows" -- which machines would those be?), but to do so you are paying for TWO copies of the same software.

Can you name a single retail computer vendor who will sell you a computer with a non-OEM license? Again, I'm talking retail. There are always custom shops who will do just about anything you want, but we're talking about the consumer retail market here.



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Retail[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#54)
by Anonymous User on Thu Jan 26, 2006 at 06:04:03 AM PDT

the local computer stores that will build a computer to what you want, including OS version, are retail stores.

If you want to only shop at big box stores look at Micro Center (microcenter.com).  They do have computers listed without Windows OEM version.

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You're right, they now have 1 model with Linspire[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#66)
by ekuns on Fri Jan 27, 2006 at 12:38:33 PM PDT

So when I said 100%, I was a fraction of a percent off. My point still stands: Microsoft licensing agreements that the OEMs have discourage the OEMs from selling computers without Windows and discourage the OEMs from giving even a full Windows install CD. This is to Microsoft's advantage, because it means the consumer buys a new version of Windows with each computer.

Microsoft does not WANT consumers to buy the full price full version of Windows, because they will then transfer it to their newer computers. The whole argument of "since it is sold at a discount" is bogus. It's a red herring.

Also notice that the OEM price of Windows has gone up or stayed the same with every release. It has never dropped. Windows is the sole component of a computer whose cost has gone up steadily and continuously over 20 years. Monitors cost less for better resolution. Drives cost less for more space. Memory costs more for more space. Network cards cost less for faster networking speed.



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Oh?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#60)
by LasVegan on Thu Jan 26, 2006 at 09:01:56 PM PDT

A few months back I bought a laptop sans OS.

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Yes, but...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#67)
by ekuns on Fri Jan 27, 2006 at 12:40:19 PM PDT

Did you actually pay *less* for the laptop since it came without an OS or did you just pay the normal price someone pays to get it with Windows but not receive Windows? Was this a new laptop? Did you buy it retail?

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Paid less[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#70)
by LasVegan on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 11:40:02 AM PDT

The OS was an *OPTION* that I didn't choose to pay for as I was replacing an old laptop that had a non-OEM copy of XP on it from a prior upgrade. Since I had a valid license I didn't need a new one.

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So who was the vendor[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#81)
by ekuns on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 04:12:15 PM PDT

where you got your laptop?

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The vendor[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#82)
by LasVegan on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 01:16:50 PM PDT

Sager

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yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#90)
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