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Get the Facts on Microsoft Benchmarks | 1092 comments (1092 topical) | Post A Comment
This is just cowardly[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#1)
by spocko on Fri Oct 29, 2004 at 09:21:32 AM PDT

Now if I were an open source PR person who wanted to tweak Microsoft's findings and didn't want to pay a lab to do the testing (and also because the lab is afraid to test without Microsoft's permission). I would just send out a release calling Microsoft a coward. That's right; Microsoft's a big fat corporate Chicken. Buck, buck, buck Bu GACK!

Most reporters have no idea Microsoft is so afraid of being compaired to other products that they kill the competition before it even starts.

"Hey Microsoft! What are you afraid of? A little healthy competition? Not allowing people to run benchmarks of your products is the sign of a company that doesn't trust the power of its products. They have to fix the race before it even starts!"

I've been watching and reading a lot of election coverage. This kind of story will get picked up. Microsoft will have to spend a bit of time running around and explaining why what they are doing is 1) Perfectly legal and 2) Not designed to thwart competition, but simply to blah blah blah.

The point is they would be on the defensive. They would have to show the world just what a cowardly company they are. It isn't good enough to have a monopoly; they also want an Unfair advantage when it comes to testing their product. Chickens.
Spocko. Author of www.spockosbrain.com the blog that is sweeping the nation! Now with 19 readers!
[ Reply to This ]



cowardly?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#10)
by Anonymous User on Sat Oct 30, 2004 at 11:41:36 PM PDT

The whole issue could be summed up with one little question: Has anyone here themselves tried to get permission to post benchmarks? Spare us the "conspiracy theories" about Microsoft wanting to "fix the race" and only approving companies that they "own" to do the testing. This is not true. Think about it, if you spent millions of dollars developing a piece of software, would you want just anyone "testing" it and posting results that are either skewed or just plain not done right and passing the results off as fact? Microsoft has a right to see that the testing was done properly or it could open up the "tester" to some form of legal action if it was found to be false. It protects both parties, not just Microsoft. Honestly, every time I see "open source" and Microsoft in the same article, the "open source fanboys/girls" come out bashing. Grow up. The hard-on you people have against Microsoft clouds your better judgement. It's the same story with the AMD/Intel arguements. Intel is the bigdog, so they must be evil, Microsoft is king, they must be evil. No, they just run a business better. So running your business better then makes you evil. You people are like watermelons, all "save the earth" green on the outside, "communist" red on the inside. I'll use Microsoft/Intel product until something better comes along, thanks all the same. Then again, whatever de-thrones them must be inherently more evil, and we're back to square one... Oh well, glad I grew up and can make my own decisions on what products to use based on what I like and not based on who is the underdog of the month. Gotta love Ed though, he writes an entire article about the benchmark, "gripes" about it, and yet doesn't refute a single finding. All he comes up with is (making his long story short) "they want permission to post test results". How "evil" of them... Maybe you could do another article showing why this isn't out of the ordinary with _any_ company that pays people to write the software, and why it isn't a bad idea. Or maybe, Ed, you could do something really "risque" and give people examples of how to get around the "permission" issue, as there are many ways. Might take more than a half a second of thought, better just stick to long wind and innuendo. And have a pleasant day!

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


If Microsoft jumped off a bridge[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#12)
by Anonymous User on Sun Oct 31, 2004 at 08:26:02 AM PDT

"So running your business better *then makes you evil."
I guess this depends on what your definition of the word "better" is.

I guess we can cancel the Olympics now. The metals will be handed out based on the essays written by the athletes themselves and judged on
 * syntax and spelling .

Did you hear the one about George Bush walking on water. A Microsoft commissioned study concluded that Bush could not swim.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Microsoft and bridges...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#15)
by Anonymous User on Sun Oct 31, 2004 at 09:13:53 AM PDT

This reply sounds a lot like Ed himself wrote it... Think about it, the person obviously read my entire post, chose one small part to get hung up on, not refuting a single item, then proceeded to write total nonsense afterwards. Just like the original article... Hi Ed! Seriously, jumping from a perceived definition of "better" to olympic essay writing, to Bush walks on water... I think it's time you put the crack pipe down, for your own mental health.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


get over it[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#17)
by Anonymous User on Sun Oct 31, 2004 at 10:35:48 AM PDT

If a satirical post is beyond you brain power maybe you need to realize that this means your lacking in brain power. Your inability to see that "perceived definition of "better" to olympic essay writing, " were not connected in any way proves it. So your on Microsoft's nuts, I am happy for you. I am not, so get over it. That's what I love about "pseudo intellectuals" think exactly like them or your a crack head. Your post was so boring and slanted I did not feel the need to refute it in its entirety nor am I obligated to do so. """You can read it for yourself if you're interested and make your own judgments.""" People like you just want the last word ( have at it ), an obsession that puts your own mental health in question. I could respond to your remarks for weeks and you would probably stay home from work just to reply. Do a little reading on Socratic Method, Scientific Method you might learn something and become a better thinker.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Thin skin?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#19)
by Anonymous User on Sun Oct 31, 2004 at 12:31:45 PM PDT

If you could refute a single thing I posted, you would have, but you would have to think for more than half a second, and you're ill equiped for that. "pseudo intellectuals", get real. I called to task the original post, and it still stands, it was a long winded waste of web. If you're going to do an essay about something, at least have a grasp of the subject. Don't pretend that by writing a windy essay about one _small_ part that somehow you have authority. Refute the findings, I dare you. And do yourself a favor, find some thicker skin, it was altogether too easy to get under your existing membrane. :D

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


What a fool.[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#20)
by Anonymous User on Sun Oct 31, 2004 at 12:40:06 PM PDT

You just prover my point and don't even realize it. What a fool.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


The fool replies to this...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#23)
by Anonymous User on Sun Oct 31, 2004 at 05:43:22 PM PDT

Umm.. Maybe I missed something, but if you think I have to have the last word, tell us why you keep replying, thereby gaining the last word? :D

Unless you can "Get the facts on Microsoft Benchmarks" and actually write some "facts" I would suggest trying http://www.zipit.shut/andsavesomefacewhileyoustillcan.htm

And remember, don't Bogart that crackpipe, my friend :D

[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Dude ......... ?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#61)
by Hyderbad Hal on Fri Nov 26, 2004 at 04:08:25 PM PDT

Guys, don't you recognise this dude? This is Brian Valentine a.k.a. the M$ hatchett man. Leave him alone and he'll go back to offshoring M$ FTE, making idle threats to M$ employees for leaking email messages sent on a large list to the register and making stupid internal commercials with bill & steveo. All his internal e-mails harp on "GETTING THE FACTS" too, then after you give them to him, he doesn't believe you. Hail to the "Brian Boy" but never again in this lifetime we're done!

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


sd[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#134)
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[ Parent | Reply to This ]


yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#157)
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[ Parent | Reply to This ]


fvbh[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#250)
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[ Parent | Reply to This ]


gfmm[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#591)
by Anonymous User on Wed Oct 29, 2008 at 02:18:08 AM PDT

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dgff[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#640)
by Anonymous User on Thu Oct 30, 2008 at 02:12:27 AM PDT

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fdgg[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#688)
by Anonymous User on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 01:23:37 AM PDT

SEX,ff,,おっぱ,,

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ffgb[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#734)
by Anonymous User on Sat Nov 01, 2008 at 01:34:05 AM PDT

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fkoo[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#783)
by Anonymous User on Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 02:40:37 AM PDT

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okmm[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#832)
by Anonymous User on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 01:25:45 AM PDT

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mkoo[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#878)
by Anonymous User on Tue Nov 04, 2008 at 08:10:33 PM PDT

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gfbb[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#928)
by Anonymous User on Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 08:23:00 PM PDT

,fff^,f熟女

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fvbb[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#977)
by Anonymous User on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 09:51:00 PM PDT

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ggfd[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#1026)
by Anonymous User on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 01:08:45 AM PDT

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fgbb[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#1075)
by Anonymous User on Mon Nov 10, 2008 at 12:47:49 AM PDT

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dfgg[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#1112)
by Anonymous User on Fri Nov 14, 2008 at 08:16:00 PM PDT

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okmm[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#1159)
by Anonymous User on Mon Nov 17, 2008 at 11:18:21 PM PDT

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Re: Microsoft and bridges...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#21)
by Ed Foster on Sun Oct 31, 2004 at 02:34:33 PM PDT

I'm not sure why anyone would think I'd post anonymously on my own website, but this subject is one I'm far too serious about for satirical remarks. And it's one I've been writing about for many years. As I pointed out in my earlier post below, Microsoft does in fact have a history of using or threatening to use the censorship clauses in its license agreements. In addition to the Air Force incident, another case I wrote about several years ago where Microsoft threatened an independent lab can be read here.

This is not just about Microsoft, though, because this is really about free speech. If you say that a Microsoft or an Oracle has the right to determine what you publish about their products, then why can't GM or GE do likewise by putting a sneakwrap "agreement" in their products as well? Consumer Reports could be virtually outlawed if other industries were allowed to do what the software industry attempts to do with the censorship clauses in their EULAs. So I find it strange that anyone thinks these no-publishing-benchmark clauses are defensible.

Ed Foster



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Microsoft and bridges...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#24)
by Anonymous User on Sun Oct 31, 2004 at 06:19:05 PM PDT

Ed, I realise that you likely take the whole issue seriously, but my thought would be that perhaps you take it too seriously. I read through both of the links you provided, and give my thoughts on both.
AirForce incident; It would appear that Eric Shulman works for the Air Force, and was set to publish his results in an "air force publication". Since both are of the same entity, the "third party" clause in the EULA would not apply.

CSA/Randall Kennedy; Randall and Microsoft both knew a problem existed somewhere in the benchmarking data, since Randall had a deadline for his paper, the paper was going to be published with skewed results. Microsoft understandably didn't want this published, why would they, it was flawed.

Perhaps an example of were Microsoft actually sued someone for posting benchmark data could be posted? I mean this whole arguement is sounding like a barking dog. Just because you hear the dog barking doesn't automatically mean you're going to see the dog or even get bit by it.


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I'm on Ed's side[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#49)
by tscoff on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:07:37 PM PDT

I want to see a test done by an independent third party where every product is tuned by the vendor who writes it and everything runs on identical hardware.

Call Microsoft in and have their System Engineers tune MS SQL Server to run as quickly as possible.  Call MySQL and have them tune MySQL to run as quickly as possible.  Call Oracle, IBM, and the authors of PostGreSQL and do the same.

Then run performance tests to see which product is the fastest on identical hardware.  That's the only way to get a true idea of which product is fastest and Microsoft's refusal to let anyone else benchmark their products is preventing that type of benchmark from happening.

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I'm still ignorant, but...[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#50)
by Anonymous User on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 06:20:41 PM PDT

Tim, you may be on "Ed's side" but have you ever questioned his theories on this subject? I may stand alone in questioning his article (or even previous articles on the same subject), I may even be called "ignorant" and "pseudo intelligent", but that in no way takes away from the main point of all my posts: FACTS. Ed gave nothing more than his own personal _opinion_ and passed it off as authority on the subject. And it remains baseless and unsubstantiated.

You mentioned "benchmarking" sql variants. This has been going on for quite some time. Nobody is hiding the results. Microsoft is NOT hiding their method of achieving their results (nor is anyone else for that matter) in fact the methods MUST be able to be reproduced by other companies or the results are quashed. Want FACTS? http://www.tpc.org  The TPC is totally third party and totally independent. MySQL chooses not to compete against Oracle, IBM, or Microsoft (you'd have to ask them why, I'm not sure, but I won't slam them for it) in this industry standard test. Again, Microsoft is not hiding behind some "clause" end of story, the fat lady has sung, stick a fork in it, it's done.

Also, benchmarks are a pretty useless way to judge software, as the "top dog" can change from day to day. Would you want to change your software all the time just so you could have "the fastest"?  As far as your suggestion on each company "tuning" their software for a specific benchmark, what would this prove? That Company "A" can "tune" their software to excel at that specific test better than Company "B" or "C"? And then Company "A" would include a caveat: Your mileage may vary. In the end, nothing was proven...


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yes[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#170)
by maderikapapa on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:03:28 PM PDT